4046 PLL question

That number comes up as "Timing Number Generator", By Clarence G. Smith.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Possibly I've done a few more, but you seem to be smarter, so I'd say we're even... :>)))

Those DAMN little packages are one of my pet peeves. For the last

10 years, whenever I sent away for a sample, all I could get was those little microscopic specks that takes FOREVER to lash up into a breadboard to test. Practically have to do complete pcb layouts in order to build up a small test circuit.... I prefer the 8 pin dips ( Like the MC1350), or full size packages that I can plug into a socket if I want, or dead bug some wirewrap to the pins if I'm in a great hurry. Personally, I did as much at home in my workshop as at work, and like the ease of layout. Of course the RF stuff pretty much has to have the tiny packages. But a LOT of the A/Ds and the mixed signal stuff is at low freqs, and the only thing the packages are good for is mass production of smt designs.......... By the time I was ready for that, pcbs were avaiable ---- I wanted to mess about with the chip to see if it worked like I thought so I could include it in the design......

If you are one of the younger guys, you might not know any better, since very very few of the present generation has any interest at all in building stuff up at home, or in exploring new ideas which are not used in a present product because it could be done quickly and without much effort......and was a hell of a lot of fun, besides....... I doubt there was a single product that I developed for Bendix, TI , or Raytheon that didn't have a substantial part of the design done in my home shop, cause it was easier to do there....

Ok, I CAN use the tiny specks. I've learned to do it. But it is a real pain in the ass and a time waster, in my opinion.......

End of rant...... out of breath........need beer ........

Party on, Andy

One of my steady customers and a former employer uses one of the 24-hour turn places -- you do a layout with 2 or 3 parts, get the board, build it up. Since you're only doing a 2-layer board the layout is quick, you get used to keeping it spread out so you can mod it if necessary, signal integrity is good and the actual hours spent are low enough to pay for the board.

Having said that, everything that I've ever done has been with through-hole parts or dead-bugged. I've probably have more than 500 DIP-packaged parts in the room with me, and probably less than 20 surface-mount IC's -- and those 20 are all freebies.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[snip]

Andy,

Can you provide a corrected number? I'm curious what deLaune patented.

Treadway was stuck at Motorola because his wife had cancer (Hodgkin's) and he needed the health insurance coverage. When she died (of pneumonia) he promptly left Motorola. Amazing what the auto-immune drugs can do to you... I saw Kay Treadway one evening at a PTA meeting... she seemed fine... the next day she was rushed to hospital and died within a few hours :-(

I'll be rather ticked if deLaune plagiarized Treadway's work and got the patent :-(

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Andy replies:

Only 500 ???? Well, we all have to start somewhere (big grin).

I measure my DIP parts, which go back 35-40 years, by the pound.

I have sacks of 5400 s ., for instance, which I will , of course, never use,,,,, ... but am too stubborn to throw out... Whenever I dig out an old part it is usually to repair something I built

25 years ago , and I have to scrape all the DIP leads with an exacto knife to get the oxidation off, and then re-tin them.......

I have several dozen of the freebees in the tiny tiny tiny packages, and I only will use them when I want to spend more time attaching leads to them than building the rest of the circuit. Typically, I will take apart a piece of lamp cord and get a single strand of the copper wire, and then, using a

magnifier, manage to attach it , somehow, to the package leads....... Damn communist conspiracy, if you ask me....

I am aware of the internet pcb houses, and many of them seem like good deals, and they provide the layout programs for free. However, by the time I have gotten an envelope and a stamp, I can typically dead bug a test circuit together with a normal, Christian-size DIP. It's only worth the trouble if I am on the clock and getting paid for wasting my time....... I bet it does cut down on the samples that Analog Devices has to give out as freebees, tho. Andy

Jim,

Here is the website where I see Jon De Laune's patent.

With any luck, you can just click on it here,...... otherwise:

I got it by going to

and clicking on " Search" in the left column

Then I selected Advanced search.

In field 1 , I put Mototola and then chose Assignee

In field 2 , I put Laune and then chose Inventor

It seems to be the only one that Jon did for Motorola.

And I seemed to have gotten it wrong, somehow, on my patent disclosure from

35 years ago, so when I gave you the patent number, it was the wrong one......

Ah, yess,,,,,, I am aware of the idea stealing that goes on...... On several of mine, when they were issued, I noticed that my boss's name was credited as co-inventor......... ( I wonder how that got there !!!! )

No matter. There's glory enough for all of us....... (grin)

....... and I'll never be able to question him about it...... cause I plan on going to heaven.....

Andy

Got it. It's not the same. Note the damned Motorola "wired OR's" ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

It wasn't in an ant-sized package but it was a sensibly sized 8-pin minidip. National used to make the 74C932N which was just the phase detector portion of a 4046. Pin compatible at the pin 1 end of the board if you connect pin 4 to ground.

If anyone is interested I could part with dozens of them as there are more than I will ever use. clive at web band dot com

That is where a solder pot comes in handy. A little liquid flux, a pair of needle nose pliers and a steady hand is all it takes to clean and tin thousands of pins an hour.

--
Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website deleted
after threats were telephoned to my church.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

I didn't plan to get sucked into this, but I would suggest that you read an EDN article "Principles of Three State Phase Detection" , which was published in around the mid-70's/

It shows the implementation of the 4044 type of phase detector, but using two D's and a reset. This is much easier to understand, tho it does EXACTLY the same.

It also has the state transition diagram ( 2 inputs, 2 outputs, 16 states) which, to a digital oriented person, tells the whole story......

I don't disagree with your interpretation, but , please , review this article and see if there is a change in the way you look at this problem.....

Remember, there are many ways of looking at the same problem and the "explanation'" of the solution is very subjective. What makes a lot of sense to you may be different from the way that Jim or the way that I look at it.... .... doesn't mean you, or me, or Jim, are wrong..... just different degrees of ..."completeness"..

Anyway, I hope you will take time to look up the reference. 3 state phase detectors are like a Chinese puzzle. ..... Once a person finally has it "click" in his mind, there is no need whatever to read app notes or spec sheets to fully understand the operation,..... whether it be TTL, ECL, Cmos, single ended, differential mode, or voltage or current sourced........ If it clicks with you, you will be a lot happier.....

Andy Sharpe

I do this when I roll my own phase detector using part of a fpga. Both outputs are normally 3-stated. Rather than tying both together, I use two separate resistors from the outputs to the lowpass filter.

This way, I can design the state machine to overlap the pump up and pump down signals slightly at zero phase offset, eliminating the dead zone.

Daniel Lang