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Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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That's because they are into ring mains and that is the
only real way to do ring mains in a domestic situation.

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No its not. Our approach works just as well and has
the massive advantage that it doesn?t need anything
special in the plug and so it can be fully moulded and
very unlikely to ever develop a fault.

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Very few in fact, not even the ex colonys like HongKong.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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We've had compulsory moulded 13A plugs for a long time now, the fuse recess  
is on the base of the plug so you can only get at it with the plug out of  
the socket.

In the early days there were fuse clip problems with heavy continuous loads  
like washing machines - but I haven't heard anyone complaining about that  
for some years ago.

Some people lose the plastic insert so they just push the fuse cartridge  
into the clips, that sometimes results in the clips ending up splayed and  
loose - but you can't blame the design for that.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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Yes, but that sort of plug is going to be much less reliable
than a fully moulded plug that has no fuse at all.

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But it will be much less reliable than a fully
moulded plug which has no fuse holder at all.

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Corse you can when a fully moulded plug
with no fuse can never have that problem.
  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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I'm certain with your attitude, it won't be too long before you find out why  
a fused plug isn't such a bad idea after all.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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More fool you. I wired my entire house that I built on a bare block of
land and got a licensed electrician to claim that he had done all the work.
And I've been doing that stuff since before you were even born thanks.

  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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You can have the Abbo's round for a barbie when it burns to the ground.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
Ian Field wrote:
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He does not live in the UK where people hide their wiring under the carpet.

Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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Yebbut at least we got carpets on real floors.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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Hasn?t done that in more than 40 years thanks, and isnt going to either.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
Ian Field formulated on Thursday :

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Nobody in the world except the Poms, with their determination to be  
different, have fused plug tops and I havn't looked but I am sure if we  
were in such danger someone would have changed the rules to follow the  
UK
Australia has had their way since the 1930s but the UK only  
standardised their system in the 1950s. Why did they not follow an  
existing workable system? B-)

--  
John G Sydney.

Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
John G wrote:

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** The UK system is very clever and solved a number of issues that had prev
iously been a worry.

Wiring outlets as a loop more than doubles the current carrying capacity of
 the same cable. A 32A loop allows most homes to have only one power circui
t.

The 3 pin outlets have safety shutters on the Active and Neutral pins and t
he earth pin is at the top, as a safety measure.  

Having fused plugs means all appliances have fuses where previously almost  
none did. The fuse protects against shorts in the cable plus also allows th
e use of light gauge cables suited to small and hand held appliances.

The fuses used are special size, ceramic HRC type BS1362, which open before
 the main breaker in short circuit fault scenarios - so one bad appliance d
oes not shut off all power in a home leaving the householder with the trick
y problem of discovering which one is to blame. Spare fuses are readily ava
ilable.

Plenty of good thinking went into the system.

The one flaw is that users can over fuse a plug - using 13A type where a 3A
 should be.  
  

....  Phil  







  

The fuses are fast acting HRC types which
  



  

Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
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Nope, they didn't invent the ring main.

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The ring main does nothing of the sort. In spades with fused plug tops.

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And uses less cable than having chains of outlets back to the fuse/breaker  
box.

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That works very poorly now with so many 10A devices in places like the  
kitchen.

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That happened much later.

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We don't get a higher rate of electrocutions when we don't.

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The fuse isnt there for that. Its there because the ring main fuse has
to be high when there is just one ring main for the entire house.

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Which isnt in fact a very common problem at all.

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We have cables that are light enough without that,
most obviously with figure 8 cables to lights etc.

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Its normally obvious which appliance has
blown the fuse/breaker with our system
and easy to unplug the ones on our spurs
to find the faulty one if it isnt obvious.

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Beakers are much more practical.

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Fuck all did in fact and no one else bothers to do it like that.

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The other flaw is that a fused plug top can never be
as reliable as a modern fully moulded unfused cable.
  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
Rod Speed wrote:
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 ** Yes it is.

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** Never claimed it alone did.  


  
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** It works fine.


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** Nope - it was part of the 1947 spec.  

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** It's still a afer way.  


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** But it does that.  


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** It's a common enough problem that shuts off all the power here.


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** But not with 3 any core cables.  

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** Like hell it is.  


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** And blow the circuit fuse or breaker over and over along the way.  

   It's a crappy way.  


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** Shame the mad Robot cannot tell good from bad thinking.



.....   Phil  

Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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.........................unless you're the kind of fuckwit that hides the  
flex under carpets.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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Fuck all are that stupid even in Britain.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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AFAIK: it was mostly about fuckwits hiding the mains flex under carpets. The  
insulation wears through and often you don't get sufficient fault current to  
blow the then panel fuse. A "more or less" short was a frequent cause of  
ignited carpets. The plug top fuse is all about preventing that - but its  
still possible to create an ignition point before the fuse fails. Its not  
only important to have that fuse, but to use the lowest rating that will  
work reliably with the supplied appliance.

The situation has massively improved since compulsory ELCB panels - but  
fires still happen.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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With a ring main with a 36A fuse, possibly. But that is so rare
that it makes no sense to be mandating that all plugs must
have an internal fuse when that makes them MUCH less reliable.

And that is what the entire rest of the world has decided.

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And now with far fewer rugs used, it just isnt a problem anymore.

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How odd that no one else needed to do that.

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The entire rest of the world knows otherwise.

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Fuck all of them happen like that anymore in
places where there is no fuse in the plug top.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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The yanks build timer frame & drywall in tornado alley - it hardly makes  
much difference whether it burns down or blows away in a storm.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault


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And fuck all else of the world is that stupid.

We don't have any more houses burn down that you lot do.  


Re: OT: house fires - electrical fault
Ian Field wrote:

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y  
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nd  
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ost  
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s  
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** A short from active to neutral always produces a lot of current - 200A o
r more and is normally only limited by installed cable resistance. This wil
l trip any breaker or blow the supply fuse instantly.  

But if the short is from active to safety earth, then current flow depends  
on the resistance of the ground connection. Here, we link the ground and ne
utral conductors at the fuse panel so there is really no difference in the  
short circuit current in both cases.

But if the safety ground connection goes only to some local earth stake or  
plumbing, then the resistance may be much higher than the cable used - redu
cing the fault current to a level that fails to blow a supply fuse. I under
stand that this method was commonly the case in the UK in the past ( pre 19
60) and may still used be in some installations.  

If you add the use of a ring mains with 32A nominal capacity and double tha
t in overload condition - then it cannot be considered safe without every p
lug containing a fuse capable of protecting the attached cable from catchin
g fire.

As you mentioned, the use of an ELCB does the job much better since it dete
cts any active-neutral imbalance and trips instantly.  


....  Phil  






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