Australians set to waste money on batteries

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
<http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/powerwall-solar-batteries-to-transform-electricity-industry/6488230

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/powerwall

At $5500 (is that including GST?) for a 7kWh model, with a ten year  
life, and allowing for interest, that comes in at about 28 cents per  
kWh, and that's before the cost of the solar panels and the inverter  
(not included with the battery), and installation, is included. It's  
also based on the questionable (i.e. certainly false) assumption that  
they can be recharged from solar everyday. The reality is that they  
won't be, and the cost per kWh will be accordingly higher.

The limit of 2kW continuous and 3.3kW peak should also be noted. It  
isn't clear how long one can draw 3.3kW for, but 2kW is less than is  
required to run an ordinary domestic kettle. A typical household might  
have trouble using the entire capacity, pushing up the effective cost  
per kWh.

The good thing about these is that they may finally force a change to  
the way electricity is charged for, with much greater emphasis placed on  
the cost of making it available versus the cost of supplying it when  
it's required. People who treat the grid as a backup will then pay  
something closer to the true cost of using it that way.

Either way, I'll have to look at that the economics of charging these on  
overnight off-peak power (generated by coal fired power stations) for  
use during the evening peak when the much more expensive power would  
otherwise be generated using less polluting natural gas, or even hydro.

Sylvia.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Fri, 22 May 2015 12:12:27 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Maybe in ten years time they might be economical. Lead acid still has the  
rest beaten. The problem really is the cost to you of building suck a  
system.  

Thew other issue is whether your mains supplier will let you do it.

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 22/05/2015 3:38 PM, news13 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Though I don't know of a lead-acid battery that will survive a daily  
deep cycle for ten years.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I don't know that they have a legal basis for objecting.

Sylvia.



Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Fri, 22 May 2015 19:31:51 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Err, never heard of  "Deep cycle lead acid battery"?
Twenty years is viable and often achieved.

Like all batteries, each type has % depth, rates and cycle trade offs,  
not to mention relative cost.

ABC Science show?, I think, was discussing this "wall" and the guys in  
the field just said NOPE, it is just a step on the road to the one we  
need. Caveat electric cars.

H
Quoted text here. Click to load it

as an electrician said "I can't do it legally, but there is nothing to  
Atop you doing it". I wanted a circuit running off the OP to keep a few  
emergency batteries topped up.

I suspect they have some legal say on what is connected to their network.


Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 23/05/2015 9:35 PM, news13 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it


The rule of thumb seems to be 50% discharge gives the best economics.

Are you aware of a lead acid deep cycle battery whose manufacturer  
states that it will last in excess of 3600 cycles at 50% discharge?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

It's just a battery that gets charged. People do it all the time. OK,  
this one's a big battery, but where's the regulation that puts a limit  
on the size of batteries being recharged?

We don't know that the electrician actually knew of a regulation.  
Perhaps he heard it in the pub, or just didn't want to carry the  
commercial risk of such an installation.

Sylvia.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Sun, 24 May 2015 01:27:17 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

What thumbless idiot came up with that?
Let me guess, it is from wikipedia?
That statement only makes sense in a specific context; perhaps motorised  
wheel chairs?

I've never heard it anywhere before.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

If I wanted long -life, I'd be planning on 10-20% discharge per day for a  
DCLA.  Only 3600 cycles should be easily achieved for wet under those  
conditions.

  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Nope, not the battery, but the source.
If you are old plan; aka direct circuits, then it is apparently a problem.
If you're on time of day, just plug here in and go.

Caveat, they do what bills for sudden consumption changes.


I supposed the real test will be the take up by the whacky bacca brigade  
to try and hide the huge electricity bill.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

All he had to do was check socket in garage and wire it in at meter box.

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 24/05/2015 7:51 PM, news13 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

But now you need more batteries, which pushes the price up.

Sylvia.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Sun, 24 May 2015 20:19:58 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Rule one, if you see price as the limitation, then you'd better study  
study investments 101 again and redo your figures.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 25/05/2015 12:41 PM, news13 wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

That sounds like "capital cost isn't important, because it's incurred  
only once."

Any money spent on batteries is money that cannot be placed on deposit  
to earn interest, so the price does matter.

Sylvia.

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Mon, 25 May 2015 13:21:25 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Oooh, side step. Discharge to 50% and have to replace 6x over the life of  
double cost & discharge to 20%.  


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hopefully, we are all set to "waste money" on minimising Anthropogenic
Global Warming! Households that are installing battery backed solar or
wind are doing their best to lower their own carbon footprint.

If you doubt that AGW is a problem then any waste of money on
batteries is insignificant compared to the government's "waste of
money" Direct Action Plan and Renewable Energy Targets.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Once again, you assume that the "true cost" does not include the cost
of AGW. If the aim is to minimise carbon emissions then it is
inevitable that we will pay more for electricity. The aim should be to
regard carbon emissions as a major cost and to tailor the supply to
maximise the use of renewables.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

That must change. Base _load_ is often confused with the cheapest
_supply_. Coal and gas should only be used if renewables cannot meet
the current load.
Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 24/05/2015 10:30 PM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it


That depends on how much pollution, waste and resources are used/made to  
make the batteries.

People often leave that out of the equation when they start talking  
about lowering their carbon footprint.

Like buying new cars for instance. You would do more for the environment  
by driving a and old plumer for 20 years instead of buying a new car  
every couple of years when you consider the amount of energy and waste  
produced that went into building that new car.




Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:30:18 +1000, Gordon Levi wrote:


Quoted text here. Click to load it

You do that with the old deep cycle lead acid battery that is highly  
recoverable. Not new yet to be proven, high tech devices.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 25/05/2015 12:30 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

This is a thread about economics, not the environment, but if you want  
people to adjust their behaviour so as to reduce their impact on the  
environment, then you will have to get an adjustment to the pricing  
signals. Most people cannot afford to put their environmental concerns  
ahead of their bank balance.

Sylvia.

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On Mon, 25 May 2015 13:28:19 +1000, Sylvia Else wrote:


Quoted text here. Click to load it

IME, they can not put anything ahead of immediate gratification, aka  
consumer spending, which is why they are whining instead of buying houses.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it

You started a thread on the topic of wasting money on batteries. Most
people cannot afford to buy the batteries. For those that can, the
target market is those that will buy them in the hope of lowering
their carbon footprint. I am reasonable confident that the number of
geeks willing to buy them based on saving money by time shifting their
electricity consumption is very close to one.

Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 26/05/2015 12:30 AM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

I don't think that's the target market at all. The target market is  
anyone who can be persuaded to buy one, and that includes those people  
who can be wrongly convinced that by this approach they can reduce their  
overall power cost. I rather suspect that the latter will constitute the  
lion's share of the market.

Sylvia.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That is because you are the one! I don't believe that anybody else
would contemplate spending $5500 to store some off peak electricity
from the grid for use in peak periods.


Re: Australians set to waste money on batteries
On 26/05/2015 6:25 PM, Gordon Levi wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

It it saved money, why not?

However, I haven't done the sums, so I don't know whether it would.

Sylvia.



Site Timeline