Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars. - Page 15

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 10.7.17 07:15, Greg Goss wrote:
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The problem with the motors in the wheels is that it is going to
be a bumpy ride becaus of the large mass outside of spring suspension.

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So has my Lexus. It is similar to the Toyota Prius scheme,
which is pretty well described in the Net.

However, Ford may have patent problems with Toyota, or they
may hava a licensing agreement.

--  

-TV


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Monday, 10 July 2017 08:43:48 UTC+1, Tauno Voipio  wrote:
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r for
he
. This
gine.
tor(!)
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Bumpiness of ride depends on the springs between wheel & body.
Greater unsprung mass means poorer following of road uevenness, which degra
des grip. It is still sprung by the tyres of course, but not a lot. So the  
motors get to experience greater lateral forces than they would mounted und
er the bonnet. Every vehicle design is a mix of advantages & compromises.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

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I was told that the entire engine and transmission scheme was licenced
from Toyota.  I sometimes call it a "Ford Prius V"
--  
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 8:33:17 PM UTC-7, Greg Goss wrote:  
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Ford and Toyota independently developed very similar systems that they cros
s-licensed.  I think it was based on a design by TRW in the 70's.

It is similar to a differential but implemented with sun and planet gearing
.

One  motor/generator balances the torque of the engine, while the other dri
ves the axle in addition to direct torque from the engine. Electrical power
 flows between the two motor/generators with the battery providing bufferin
g.

The gearing is arranged so that at cruising speeds most of the power to the
 wheels goes through the mechanical path for efficiency and it acts like a  
parallel hybrid.  Under other conditions significant power is transferred e
lectrically and it acts like a serial hybrid.

The engine can run at almost any speed independent of road speed so it can  
be kept at a very efficient part of its RPM/torque curve without any steppe
d gear changes.

If the required power to the road is less than the engine can provide effic
iently it can be stopped and the car be powered only by the battery.

kevin

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

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Unsprung weight is not a good thing.

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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GE has mass produced via 3D-printing a metal nozzle tip that would have been  
difficult to produce using other methods:

An Epiphany Of Disruption: GE Additive Chief Explains How 3D Printing Will  
Upend Manufacturing.
Jun 21, 2017 by Tomas Kellner
[quote]The nozzle met the team?s wildest expectations. Morris? machine not  
only combined all 20 parts into a single unit, but it also weighed 25  
percent less than an ordinary nozzle and was more than five times as  
durable. ?The technology was incredible,? Ehteshami says. ?In the design of  
jet engines, complexity used to be expensive. But additive allows you to get  
sophisticated and reduces costs at the same time. This is an engineer?s  
dream. I never imagined that this would be possible.?[/quote]
http://www.ge.com/reports/epiphany-disruption-ge-additive-chief-explains-3d-printing-will-upend-manufacturing/

But what I really find interesting in this article are some comments GE's  
additive manufacturing head Ehteshami said about what he see's for the  
future of 3D-printing:

[quote]?I was excited but also disturbed,? says Mohammad Ehteshami after a  
vendor printed an complex part for a jet engine. ?I knew that we found a  
solution, but I also saw that this technology could eliminate what we?ve  
done for years and years and put a lot of pressure on our financial model.?[/quote]

and:

[quote]Ehteshami calls his additive awakening an ?epiphany of disruption.?  
Says Ehteshami: ?Once you start thinking about it, you realize both  
intellectually and emotionally ?Oh my God, if I don?t start moving, somebody  
else will.? You are excited because you are an engineer, but you are also  
afraid because you are a human being. Both of these feelings start pulling  
at you to say: ?I?ve got to go, I?ve got to go.? And you start running.?[/quote]

From the way I interpret what Ehteshami is saying, it mirrors something I've  
been thinking. You can imagine not just cars being fully 3D-printed, but  
entire airplanes, tractors, construction vehicles, refrigerators, air  
conditioners, and everything else called "durable goods". But this would  
mean nearly all manufacturing jobs would be replaced by 3D-printing  
machines. That is a major economic disruption.

Not only that, but all these would become much cheaper. Would the companies  
that produce them even be billion dollar companies anymore?


   Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize  
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital  
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--  


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

<snip>

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Puerile nonsense.

3D printers make parts which need to be assembled into a finished item.

The list of materials that can not and can never be printed is huge.

How do you print a spring inside of something and under compression?

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Someone is watch too much scifi.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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How do you interpret those two quotes of the head of GE's additive  
manufacturing division?

   Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--  


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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That for some very particular applications, i.e. complex jet engines and
rocket engines, parts count can be reduced because in some applications
multiple parts can be replaced with one printed part.

This is something most people have know for a very long time.

How do you print a spring inside of something and under compression which
you would need to do to be able to 3D print a vehicle?


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 21:01:10 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com  wrot
e:
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ng  
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but
uld

Suspension can be made uncompressed and then compressed by the weight of th
e vehicle sitting on it. Whether 3d printers will ever be able to turn mild
 steel into a spring in situ I don't know. But since millions of vehicles h
ave been produced with rubber suspension your objection is entirely bogus.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
An article from 2015:
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GE's only being able to mass produce a complex fuel nozzle by 3D-printing,  
suggests the usefulness of 3D-printing for mass production is dependent on  
the complexity of the part.

Desktop Metal claims their production system could 3D-print one hundred  
small parts inches across in 4.5 hours, at a production cost of $4.25 each:

Desktop Metal Production System.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo


But what those parts could actually be sold for would be dependent on the  
complexity of the part, which is reflected in the sale price of the part. An  
example in this size range would be electric motors for radio controlled  
airplanes and drones. Depending on power rating, these small electric motors  
can still be priced in the hundreds of dollars range:

Brushless Motors > Model Motors Brushless.
http://www.radicalrc.com/category/Model-Motors-Brushless-113

The highest power rated motors listed there are priced at $200, while still  
being only inches across. So Desktop Metal 3D-printing 100 of these could  
sell them for a total of $20,000, while their production cost for the 100  
would be only $425.

This possibility, that the DM system could 3D-print the entire electric  
motor, could be tested by anyone who owns a Desktop Metal Studio machine due  
to be available this year for single part prototyping. If so, the Desktop  
Metal Production machine could pay for itself in 2 days to anyone who  
purchased it.


  Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--  



Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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The Desktop Metal Production system could also 3D-print an electric car  
motor that's at a comparable power rating to the Tesla electric motor, at  
ca. 400 HP:

AM Racing AMR Dual Stack 250-90 AC Motor - Liquid Cooled, Permanent Magnet -  
Remy
[AMR 250-90D]
Price:  $18,488.00
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id30%0

Judging from $425 production cost for a run within the full production  
volume, this would likely be the comparable cost for a single large motor  
taking up the full production volume.

That a complex expensive machine at a $18,000 sale price could be 3D-printed  
at only a $400 production cost, would be evidence for the imminent  
disruptive nature of 3D-printing to manufacturing and to its ability  
radically reduce costs.

  Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanotech-from-air-to-space/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
In sci.physics snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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<snip>
  
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Pointless; he just wants to argue until there is a "winner" and keeps
spinning off in tangents.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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I am sorry that you can no longer follow complex arguments.
Perhaps I could summarise for you?


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

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Pot.  Kettle.  Star Trek Replicator.


--  
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 7/19/2017 11:56 PM, David Mitchell wrote:
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why not print pizza....   ?    should be a huge demand for that...

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On 07/20/2017 11:18 AM, Serg io wrote:
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I saw a pancake printer at Makerfest a few years ago.  The pancakes were
pretty good tasting too.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--  
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:34:24 -0400, Phil Hobbs

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Why would you print, rather than extrude?

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
In sci.physics snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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Some people are monomaniacal about 3D printing.

--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

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Yes, you are, and the rest of us wish you would STFU.


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You are  
What you do  
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