TDR pulse or squarewave ?

====snip====

It's not the *wire* that has the characteristic impedance, it's the wire and the ground return circuit that provides the characteristic impedance.

What you have there with your BOG, is effectively an extremely leaky transmission line feeder that happens to have a useful directional response to skywave signals (both front and back along its length if the far end isn't terminated with a dummy load matching its characteristic impedance).

If you can set up a variable dummy load which impedance can automatically track the ever changing characteristic impedance of your 'leaky feeder' antenna[1], apart from variations in the signal voltage transfer function into the Rx's input impedance, whatever impedance mismatch you have at the Rx end won't matter one jot as far as suppressing the unwanted reverse direction of signal pickup.

Anything coming in from the 'back' will never bounce back to the Rx due to the perfectly matched dummy load termination and any signal received from the forward direction hitting an Rx mismatch will only suffer a portion of its energy being bounced back to the terminated end, never to trouble the Rx again.

[1] After reading that pdf on the mysterious drop in performance of a BOG, I'm guessing that an obvious way to improve performance, as well as reduce variations in Z, would be to lay down a metre wide 100 metre long roll of thin copper sheet along the ground upon which to lay your BOG wire and hammer a pair of grounding rods either side of the copper groundplane, say every ten metres, to bond the copper sheet to ground for good measure.

It still won't be perfectly stable with regard to Z but it will come a damn sight closer to the ideal and reduce losses to boot. :-)

A much cheaper, and more practical alternative to this problem might be simply to suspend it a few feet above the ground clutter (say 6 to 10 feet, depending on the nature of the ground clutter and how often you plan on hacking it back).

Incidentally, the Z of a BOG will vary along its length according to variations in the local ground conductivity. This isn't usually a problem since in general, these changes in Z tend to be relatively smooth in nature. It's only step changes in Z that give rise to unwanted reflections that would spoil the immunity to unwanted signals arriving from the back end.

This leads on to the idea of an extremely long BOG not needing to be quite so perfectly matched to its termination dummy load since the increased return losses will improve the situation of unwanted reflections spoiling its rejection of signals originating in the reverse direction.

Given a long enough wire, you can simply bury the last ten yards or so into a shallowly downsloped trench and forget about adding a discrete terminating impedance altogether. Just let the ground do the job for free! :-)

--
Johnny B Good
Reply to
Johnny B Good
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====snip====

Bingo! That's effectively what a BOG is; a very leaky transmission line! The moment you terminate such an and fed long wire *antenna* into a ground return dummy load that matches its effective transmission line impedance characteristic, it stops being a conventional long wire antenna with antenna like resonances and becomes a leaky feeder *transmission* line instead.

If both ends are terminated with impedance matching dummy loads, you won't ever see any resonance effects (unless the construction includes any step changes of impedance). The effective impedances at each end need not be the same with such a practical BOG but as long as changes of impedance from end to end are smooth transitions, it only matters that each end is terminated with an impedance that matches whatever it happens to be at each end. This means you won't be seeing any resonant effects with such a leaky feeder transmission line antenna.

--
Johnny B Good
Reply to
Johnny B Good

Ya, it's the edge of a commercial property and the buffer woods between the commercial property and a subdivision. My Bog ends near (35ft) the fence line of two houses, one owner has two dogs. if they are out, I lose my invisibility cloaking.

"Oh, just watering the termination of my beverage". Then

Reply to
amdx

I assert that what you're after doesn't exist. The video describes how to terminate a (approximately) lossless transmission line with constant characteristic impedance and no radiation. In that case, the only significant frequency dependent characteristics are the length of the mismatched cable. To the extent that your BOG approximates that, you're good to go.

Stuff a repetitive pulse into a coax. Do A FFT on that pulse train. You'll see the frequencies and amplitudes that the pulse is putting on the line. You'll see the summation of the line characteristics at those and only those frequencies and amplitudes. Because the ideal coax is frequency independent, it doesn't matter. If the BOG has characteristics like resonance or loss/radiation, you may not be able to relate that to what you see on the scope.

The math relating frequency to time is doable. But the devil is in the details. It's very difficult to generate the required pulses and measure with the required resolution to get any useful data. The dynamic range required is non trivial. It's often best to solve a frequency problem in the frequency domain, especially if you want it simple.

Here's a thought experiment. Suppose I gave you two coaxes connected to identical BOG antennas except that they had different termination resistors. I ask you to pick the one that's the best. How would describe the symptom that distinguishes best from worst? What if you were to adjust one of the termination resistances to maximize the goodness and minimize the badness of that symptom?

If there ain't no observable symptom, don't worry about it.;-) If there is an observable symptom, tweak the load to optimize that.

Please post some pictures of the waveforms you get from the TDR. Would be interesting to see what it looks like.

Would also be interesting to learn the frequencies you need and what you're trying to do with it when you get it.

Are we having fun yet?

Reply to
mike

As I understand it, the termination resistor is is adjusted correctly, when you have the highest F/B ratio, ie the signals from the back are all dissipated in the termination resistor and don't reflect back to the transformer. I just need to run a wire for a Vactrol and then it won't matter. I will be able to adjust the termination from the shack for the best (least cochannel interference) signal.

I'm work in the AM broadcast band, 540 to 1700kHz.

Ya, but not enough, I think I'm retired, my wife doesn't, we have a small business.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

This pulse generator by Leo Bodnar is all the rage on the EEVblog forum for TDR. About as fast as you Can get with low cost gear.

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Steve

Reply to
sroberts6328

OK, it's becoming clearer... You're building a Bird Slug. It's a directional coupler loosely coupled to the "ether". In a Bird Wattmeter the sensor is coupled to a relatively constrained wave. Your directional coupler has RF coming in at all angles and phase shifts. Not clear whether it's a simple summation of cosine relationships or something more sinister.

What is the 'work' that you're doing in the AM broadcast band? Stated another way...what is the improvement in your quality of life that results from this impedance match?

Reply to
mike

Front to back ratio, ie, less cochannel interference. As it stands now, I have local stations directly West and one directly East, At night they are both gone on the BOG and 6 S units of more on my long wire and active whip antenna. That's not a bad thing, As long as I have good signal of the front. I'm in the Florida Panhandle and the antenna points at Chicago.

I have noted that the pattern starts reverting back to a more omni pattern at somewhere above 1MHz. This happens because the antenna is to short. I hope to add some loading coils to make it seem longer.

I did some antenna measurements using my MFJ-259* through a 500ohm to

50 ohm transformer. With the far end OPEN, I measured at 500kHz--406ohms, 1000kHz--509ohms, 1500kHz--482ohms and 2000kHz--270ohms.

With a 500 ohm termination, I measured at 500kHz--425ohms,

1000kHz--475ohms, 1500kHz--407ohms and 2000kHz--350ohms.

I don't know what it means, I'm supposed to match the surge impedance of the BOG. I guess I have to compromise, but at 500 ohms, I think I'm very close for the 3 to 1 frequency range I'm after. In the end, I'll have a variable resistor termination so getting this termination right is just to learn about it

I ordered a new Antenna analyzer yesterday (Rigexpert AA-35), the MFJ-259 just doesn't cut it any longer. It will be even more fun with graphs!!

  • To get better? measurements, I monitored the 259 output voltage with my DVM and recorded the number for each frequency. Then back in the shop, I put variable resistance on the MFJ/transformer assy and adjusted to match the readings I got in the field, then measured the R with my DVM. Ya, this is ignoring any reactance, but, I'll get there.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

All that it means is that the feed impedance of the BOG is not the same as the impedance of your zip cord feed line. If you set the terminator for best F/B ratio on the BOG, you'll probably end up with some complex impedance at the feed point. Your zip cord feed line might match that, but it's unlikely. So, to get it perfect, you'll need some kind of antenna tuner or at least an LC network at the antenna feed point to make the antenna look purely resistive.

Incidentally, I've found this T-match Java tuner simulator handy for

160m antenna matching. Probably will work equally well on BCB. Keep close watch on the tuner losses:

You can probably live without a tuner and just use resistors to match the real part of the antenna impedance close to the zip cord impedance or 50 receiver input. That's because your limiting factor for decent reception at 1MHz is atmospheric noise. If you install an attenuator between the BOG and the feed line for matching, the signal level will go down, but the noise will also go down by the same amount. The benefit is that the BOG will probably have a better F/B ratio. If you don't believe me, take your current setup, and estimate the SNR by watching the audio on an oscilloscope. Then, add a 3 or 6dB attenuator at the 50 ohm receiver input. Crank up the receiver volume to get the same peak level on the scope. You should see the same SNR.

I suggest you do your measurements at the antenna feed point, without the zip cord feed line. Once the numbers look sane, then deal with the feed line and matching to 50 ohms into the receiver.

Your new analyzer looks interesting: I don't know anything about it, but if it's better than my MFJ-269 and doesn't blow up the input diodes every time I connect it to a big antenna, I'm interested. Let me know how it works for you.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I measured the BOG only no feedline, just a 500 to 50 ohm transformer between the MFJ259 and the wire.

If you set the

Yes, that's what I did.

Here's a comprehensive review of the functions of the AA-55, but the only difference I can find is the upper frequency range.

Here's a comparison of the 10 analyzers from Rigexperts.

I'm starting to notice some electronics coming out of Ukraine, which is where this is made. Mikek

Reply to
amdx

I'm getting way beyond my experience, so this is "food for thought."

I'm assuming that there's so much noise coming in that you can easily build an amplifier that doesn't degrade SNR.

Why not put a buffer at the BOG? You can adjust the circuit design to make the input impedance track what the BOG wants over the frequency range. The feedline gets matched to 50 ohms, or whatever shielded cable you use, and those issues go away. Yes?

What if you were to build a reverse directional coupler? Haven't figgered out exactly how to build it, but as a thought experiment, consider a coax placed parallel to the antenna. Not sure how long it needs to be. Terminate it and send down a signal at the Rx frequency. Cut a slot along the top of the coax to let the RF leak out without disturbing the impedance much. Tweak the BOG termination to minimize the signal leaking out of the coax at the receiver. Assume symmetry and use the same termination impedance on both ends of the BOG.

I'd still like to see the TDR waveforms. It would be hard to find a pulse generator and scope that wouldn't be good enough at 1MHz. and 500 ohms. I thought the probe calibration signal out of the scope would work, but I tried it. I was wrong. Rise time too slow.

Reply to
mike

*********************************************************************** I'm getting way beyond my experience, so this is "food for thought."

I'm assuming that there's so much noise coming in that you can easily build an amplifier that doesn't degrade SNR.

Why not put a buffer at the BOG? You can adjust the circuit design to make the input impedance track what the BOG wants over the frequency range. The feedline gets matched to 50 ohms, or whatever shielded cable you use, and those issues go away. Yes?

What if you were to build a reverse directional coupler? Haven't figgered out exactly how to build it, but as a thought experiment, consider a coax placed parallel to the antenna. Not sure how long it needs to be. Terminate it and send down a signal at the Rx frequency. Cut a slot along the top of the coax to let the RF leak out without disturbing the impedance much. Tweak the BOG termination to minimize the signal leaking out of the coax at the receiver. Assume symmetry and use the same termination impedance on both ends of the BOG.

I'd still like to see the TDR waveforms. It would be hard to find a pulse generator and scope that wouldn't be good enough at 1MHz. and 500 ohms. I thought the probe calibration signal out of the scope would work, but I tried it. I was wrong. Rise time too slow.

************************************************************

My newsreader is acting up, I could not see any text in your post, I went to google groups and pasted it above.

I think that's reasonable in the MF band. I have some 2 FET amps that are high input impedance 100 ohm output, low noise.

Neat idea! After I get my new analyzer, that might be possible, although I would need an adult to figure out the L's and C's to match the antenna. I haven't got any hints to the reactance of the BOG over frequency. Stepped away from coax, I'm using twisted speaker wire for it's much lower signal ingress. Could move to CAT5 with or without a shield, I've read the shield is not necessary. Mostly the CAT5 because I can get it that will standup outdoors. I suspect my speaker wire won't hold up.

I'm not interested in receiving from the back side of the antenna, it would receive South and central America, Mexico and Cuba, I don't understand Spanish. There are plenty of plans for reversible Beverages.

Ya, I'll go look for that chip when I finish here, I bought the stock from a company I worked for, I may have it.

:-) I looked at that also.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

The AA-55 will generate an on screen Smith Chart, while the AA-35 does not. The AA-35 goes up to 35MHz, while the AA-55 goes to 55MHz (to cover 6 meter band). Whether these are worth an extra $100 is questionable. Smith charts are very useful for antenna and transmission line matching. Compare: Notice that there two very different web piles:

Yep, which might causes problems when you need repairs and spare parts. The USA site points to corporate offices in Carmichael, CA.

Hang on while I remove my RF hat and replace it with my PC Repair hat. I didn't write the stuff you cited.

Looking at your news header, you're using Thunderbird 52.8.0. That the current version. What's probably happening is that your indexes are corrupted. First, rebuild the global database: Then, compact the news directories (right-click -> compact). Then if that doesn't work, find the index files for news in the ..\Applications Data\Thunderbird\Profiles\{whatever}\something I don't have News installed under Thunderbird on this machine so I can't give you the exact location and file names. Once you've found them, move just the indexes to an empty directory. When you restart Thunderbird, it will automagically rebuild the news indexes. Incidentally, the same problem (no text) happens with email and is fixed in the same manner.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

You missed the whole point. What if you were to build a reverse directional coupler? Haven't figgered out exactly how to build it, but as a thought experiment, consider a coax placed parallel to the antenna. Not sure how long it needs to be. Terminate it and send down a signal at the Rx frequency. Cut a slot along the top of the coax to let the RF leak out without disturbing the impedance much. Tweak the BOG termination to minimize the signal leaking out of the coax at the receiver. Assume symmetry and use the same termination impedance on both ends of the BOG.

The purpose is as a tool to adjust the termination. Just happens to work like a bird slug directional coupler, only it's a source rather than an input. The advantage is that you don't have to match the drive impedance, it's just another received signal with precisely known parameters.

Reply to
mike

Yes, I missed the point.

Well beyond my pay grade, or said another, I don't have a clue how to go about that.

Reply to
amdx

I don't know that the Smith chart capability would have pushed me to the AA-55 for the extra $110, maybe then I would need to learn understand Smith charts. I also should have bought from Rigexpertusa.

Ya, sorry, that was a response to mike's 2:55 post, I couldn't respond to it so I responded to my own post and copied his post into it.

Looking into it, wonder if I should delete some of the 45,000 emails I have under two email addresses. I'll google how to delete emails by sender.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

Sort the messages by the "From" column by clicking on the "From" tab. Find the first instance of the person you want to delete. Stomp and hold the key. Scroll down to the last instance of the messages you want to delete. Left click once. The messages by the person should be highlighted. Hit and they're gone.

You might also consider using a program designed for reading Usenet news. I suggest Forte Agent: $29 after 30 day free trial.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Kinda sounds like yet another antenna analyzer. Sweeping the HF bands with the watts of RF that it takes to get an indication on a Bird slug is probably not the way to make yourself very popular. If you must sweep or transmit, use low power.

May I suggest some alternatives:

  1. Noise Bridge:

  1. Return Loss Bridge: Requires an RF source, sweep generator, RF diode detector, and oscilloscope. It shows the VSWR, but not the load reactance. I have a bunch of Texscan return loss bridges that I use on the bench mostly to sweep various antennas:

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

You're missing the point too. The BOG IS the bird slug. The parallel transmission line radiates fractions of a milliwatt to get thru the BOG a few feet away and onto the receiver is a controlled source to let you tune the BOG termination. The unanswered question is just how long does that transmission line have to be to get useful results. I think I'd use a sine wave. A noise generator works, but you have to average it. And the total noise power required is WAY more than you'd need for a single frequency carrier.

As I said, this is a thought experiment. Might turn out to be totally wrong...

Reply to
mike

I installed a variable termination on the BOG today, 200 ohm to 1300 ohms. I used an old style Vactrol VTL3A27*, padded with a series 100ohm fixed resistor and a parallel 1,330 ohm fixed resistor. Will get to test it tonight. Mikek

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Reply to
amdx

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