OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue

You can say that, but I've never met a machinist who used algebra. The problems encountered by machinist have been solved for them either by methods of setting up the machine or in the software used. I learned some very handy tricks for using a milling machine but since I don't use a milling machine more than that one time I have forgotten them all.

Don't we all. Again, the successful accountants I've met simply knew the law and knew how to use the programs on the computer *or* the higher paid accountants knew business management.

Maybe you need to learn reading comprehension. No one said anything about tossing out STEM courses. The issue is not keeping algebra as a requirement for *all* students in community colleges who often earn *no* degree or at best a 2 year degree. I expect if you are in a STEM program there will still be math requirements.

Lol! You really do think in black and white.

Mark Storkamp wrote on 7/21/2017 3:05 PM:

You aren't going to win this one. When Joerg gets a bone in his mouth... If he knows one machinist who uses algebra in his work that will set the gold standard for all machinist jobs. It won't matter what anyone says.

That said, I've never understood why people can't do the things I do easily. That's my failure. Lots of people aren't so good with math and 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. Just like they don't even teach basic arithmetic as a staple. Kids learn how the basics work and then are allowed to use calculators. In our day we didn't have that luxury, but it can work for them.

Heck, I handed a checker some bills and some change the other day and the 20 something smiled at me like we had a shared secret, obviously she understood I was trying to get rid of a handful of coins to get back a single quarter. Usually I get dumb looks. One guy punched in the bills even though I said, "let me give you some coins". Then he looked unhappy that I was going to push the coins on him anyway. He took my word for it that he needed to give me back just two dollars.

Talking about this stuff makes me feel old. It is a joke with my friends that I can do a lot of math exactly in my head. I feel like I'm putting on a show sometimes.

I have and those were the highly paid guys in the shop.

Jobs that can be done by using printed examples, code examples or CAM files almost anyone can do these days. Then there are jobs where a production engineer walks in and says "Well, we have this weird wombombulator that just broke and there is no documentation and we have an acute production line stop because of it. Can you help us? Fast?". That's the people who make the big bucks but they have to be able to actually program a CNC machine and that can require a good dose of algebra.

This is also what the big players say:

Quote "It could go without saying that machinists need a firm understanding of algebra and geometry".

Naturally, same here. The black thumb I had for almost a year when a machine piece flew off has healed off. By that time I had gotten rusty again.

You are forgetting the people who are setting up all the databases, query formula sets and such. Whether they are contractors, consultants or employees doesn't matter. They are the ones who will make decent money because everything would collapse without them. It's similar to us analog guys. We are not simply "know-the-laws" guys, we are also usually not high-class managers, we are the sorely needed folks who solve the tough noise-critical stuff.

Algebra is part of STEM. When you toss that for supposedly "unrelated field students" you are preventing many people from becoming experts in their field and depriving them from becoming true generalists.

Study Jaime Escalante, an immigrant teacher who was also staunchly opposed to bilingual eduction. Maybe then you understand. This guy really knew.

I know a lot of machinists who use algebra. Those are generally the higher-payed ones who rarely do grunt work.

You obviously never sat in board meetings and the like at critical times. There you are expected to calculate in your head all the time and immediately, prontissomo, raise your hand if something smells foul. "Guys, wait a minute, that margin formula over there does not really compute". In a board room it is highly frowned upon to punch virtual keys on a smart phone and you'd be way too slow with that method anyhow. Those meetings seem ritzy, easy and plush with the free bagels and coffee. They are not. Afterwards most people are dead-tired.

Exactly like my experience above. So unfortunately things have not changed. That is also part of the problem with our public school system.

Some of the best teachers I had in highschool were "shortage pinch-hitters" hauled in from industry. No "teaching credentials". One of the best was a chemist from Henkel, a big chem corp that now also owns Loctite. His normal job was developing formulae for laundry detergent. Thick Czech accent and his first intro was a question to us "Wherr iss fiah ixtingisha?". That promised to be fun and it was. I never had any interest in chemistry but this guy woke me up, and a lot of others as well.

It seems our basic definitions differ. To me a machinist is in production. Someone in production support is not a machinist (although they may have been at one time). And still, I'm not seeing the need for algebra.

That's worthless. Heck, Time magazine is less than worthless. The SAT

What was your score?

We have a Tormach n/c mill, which I don't know how to program. And a beautiful old manual Bridgeport, which I like. You can *feel* it cutting metal.

We've got to move both of them soon, down some stairs into a basement. A good rigger can move anything.

Maybe you don't live in the US. Here, a machinist is often someone who works in the machine shop of a company. That machine shop is "the" go-to place for all things mechanical. When production needs a special tool or engineering needs an intricate fixture that's where they go. Often with the proverbial scribbles on a napkin in hand. These guys are expected to pull it off. Simple things such as mass production from CAM files are typically farmed out. Just like what us electrical types do with board assembly.

My mountain bike buddy uses CNC-enhanced Bridgeports at work. The kind where you often do have to know how to program them. Their formal trade name is tool & die maker but everyone including themselves call them machinist.

I always wonder how they do that without ruining their lower backs. Just getting a modified upright wine fridge (now a beer fermenting chamber) into our downstairs room was the limit for me and that weighed under 500lbs.

Check out this AI Twitter bot programmed with high-quality bait specially designed to argue with angry Internet dudes for hours and hours:

Before you move the Bridgeport, measure its height and the height of the ceiling in the basement.

Bridgeport will not fit into most basements.

Dan

My SAT Math 800 got me a full Alumni Fund National Scholarship to MIT ;-) ...Jim Thompson

Odd question. The 'science track' doesn't diverge from the real world at any point, and history is something ALL educated persons should be able to grasp. Algebra likewise. A good school exercises the ability to grasp (education), as much as exercising a skill set (training).

In particular, anyone who uses a spreadsheet for calculations should know algebra, or the spreadsheet becomes a mystical guide instead of a tool. It doesn't matter if you have skill at using the algebraic principles, but it DOES matter if the concepts are unfamiliar.

My favorite was at what was called Business/Teacher day... teachers went out and were toured thru businesses, business man came and 'taught' for the day... my favorite: the county medical examiner... really neat pictures of how an autopsy is done (the girls were none too happy >:-} ...Jim Thompson

The food is better in New Orleans.

Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is is an interesting question.

Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...

Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication and division by hand? Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication and division by hand?

I learned both by rote. God it was tedious, and arguably a waste of life, but there was little alternative. (Fortunately pi^2=g=10)

Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand, but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.

That may be coloured by my having twice in my career to develop arithmetic algorithms for computers, because no libraries were available.

Can you justify this need? Why is it important to know how to do something you won't do?

Are you asking for the answer to 2 3 * 1 + or 1 2 + 3 * in postfix notation?