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Re: Using electric field to thin fuel



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Nor does having one granted ,esp by the USPTO who are only interested in your
money.

I fully expect MOST patents in the USA are TOTALLY worthless.

Graham


Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Sticking with the motoring theme of this thread do you know that Harley
Davidson is actually trying to patent the "sound" of its motorcycles?  This
is a first BTW.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/articles/content/1998101101.html

BTW Harley's are the most efficient engines at turning petrol into noise
without the side effect of horsepower ;-)

Cheers TT



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     Ah-hah ... That's what I always suspected!!

Bob


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It was an attempt at registering the sound as a trademark, not a patent, and
they dropped the idea over 8 years ago........

--
Kwyj.



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I was watching an episode of American Chopper and they made a custom
bike for a lawn mower Company
even used the mower engine
seemed to go as well as any of the choppers they had with Harley based
engines

Kev

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Quite a few of the rest aren't even legally worth the protection
that they ostensibly provide.

USPTO seems to think that ALL prior art is that which exists in
their Patents database. I'm aware of one Patent in particular where
a web search would have found prior art; mine, at least. I published
to frustrate somebody getting a Patent on the bleeding obvious.
<http://bernd.felsche.org/tech/EFI/DDL/DDL.html

It was a mailing list member who subsequently patented the invention.
US Patents 6,978,655 and 7,249,489
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in
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Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
put finger to keyboard and composed:

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Heating is costly.

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I was being deliberately cynical. Clearly the researchers have been
unable to demonstrate any benefits in petrol engined vehicles,
otherwise they would be crowing about them.

The researchers claim that "because combustion starts at the interface
between fuel and air and most harmful emissions are coming from
incomplete burning, reducing the size of fuel droplets would increase
the total surface area to start burning, leading to a cleaner and more
efficient engine".

So it seems to me that the idea behind the invention is to reduce the
viscosity of the fuel in order to improve its atomisation, which in
turn results in combustion efficiencies.

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True. An Australian lawyer was granted a patent on the wheel, with a
sketch of a billy cart as the application.

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The article states that "the Delphi Company plans to develop a new
fuel injector that uses a high pressure of 100 bar to reduce the size
of gasoline droplets to 25 m in diameter".

This is approaching the problem from a different perspective, but the
aim is the same, ie to improve fuel atomisation. The researchers have
made no claims in respect of stoichiometric ratios.

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Many years ago I added an electronic water injection system to my
triple-carburettored engine. A few minutes at low vacuum was all that
was required to empty the bottle. Pretty much useless.

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Likewise. I suspect that the subject invention will have no
application in petrol engined vehicles.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Exactly, fuel atomisation and fuel viscosity are different things.
The invention claims to reduce fuel viscosity, which *may* make a difference
to the economy in a limited number of cases, but the same effect can
probably be achieved in a number of other ways, some of which are probably
cheaper, and/or already being used.

MrT.



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
keyboard and composed:

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I presume it's easier to atomise a low viscosity fluid, so the two
things must be related. Just how much an effect a smaller droplet size
has on combustion efficiency would be debatable, though. I'm finding
it difficult to accept the researchers' claim that they reduced the
fuel consumption of a Mercedes-Benz diesel car (I wonder who supplied
it?) from 32mpg to 38mpg. Under city conditions they claim a fuel
saving of 12-15%, and on an engine dyno they claim that "the power
output was improved by about 20.4% at the same fuel consumption rate".

Assuming the results are genuine, this would suggest that combustion
in an unmodified engine is incomplete and that approximately 15% of
the fuel is normally burnt up in the exhaust. I find this hard, if not
impossible, to accept. Alternatively, it could be that better
atomisation results in a more efficient combustion flame. Perhaps an
adaptive ECU could back off the ignition advance if the flame were to
propagate faster (anti-knock), and maybe this is where the combustion
efficiencies come from ???

Or maybe it's just an elaborate scam. :-)

BTW, I wonder how a car would fare with an injected engine against an
identical carburettored version? Presumably the former would have much
better fuel atomisation. Could one expect 10% or 20% lower fuel
consumption for the injected version? If not, then that would tend to
discredit the researchers' claims.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Atomisation.

good mixing of fuel and air is essential to good combustion.

Bye.
   Jasen

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Ahhhhhh..................  I see.  So rather than make good fuel injectors
that do this already we have to invent something to change the viscosity of
the fuel?  Or rather than use waste heat from the engine to do it we chose
to suck electrical power out of the alternator and so decrease efficiency
further.

Silly me ;-)

Cheers TT



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
put finger to keyboard and composed:

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AFAIK, heating fuel lines is a bad idea. In the days when we had
carburettors and mechanical low-pressure fuel pumps, there was a
phenomenon called vapour lock. It is rarely seen in injected engines,
though.

The researchers claim that the power required for their device is only
0.1W. They say that the wire mesh electrodes are 1cm apart, and that
the field strength is 1kV/mm. This would require a 10kV source.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

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The device that's generates a sustained 10kV using 0.1W would probably have
greater application :-)

MrT.



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Photo-flash.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Science is the belief in
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Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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have

Actually many are less than 10kV and those that aren't use more than 0.1W
for a sustained output (non power saving shut down mode).
But hey, YOU can try putting a flash gun next to your fuel line and let us
know how much improvement you get :-)

I think the law of conservation of energy might also have some effect, IF
you expect to change any amount of fuel viscosity in any measurable way.
Maybe they could try using a radioactive device instead?

MrT.



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If Iran gets its way then in the future all the fuel from there will be
radioactive any way ;-)

Cheers TT



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
keyboard and composed:

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In a petrol engine you could probably tap into the HV side of the
ignition coil. However, the researchers did not demonstrate any
measurable effect on the viscosity of unblended petrol, so one could
infer that their device has no application in petrol engined vehicles.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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I doubt the extremely short pulse generated by a HT coil would be adequate
for normal fuel flow in any case, even if it was shown to have any advantage
on petrol. A *sustained* field is required, but good try though :-).

MrT.



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so use a half-wave rectifier.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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adequate
advantage

That will turn an extremely short pulse into a sustained field how exactly?

MrT.



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