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Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

William Sommerwanker = FUCKWIT "

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** But all CFLs are dimmable.


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**  All of them.

The main one being that they can replace any incandescent bulb.

The makers make no such claim.


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** False.

 The makers make no such claim.


 > I'm very much in favor of reduced CO2 emissions,


** Then,  FFS  -  kill yourself.








Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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**Exactly. Large numbers of products, including automobiles, are carefully
costed, WRT energy consumption. They need to be in such a cut-throat market.

 Any fool can say "this
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**And yet, it is routinely done. For all manner of products. Bean counters
are very good at these sorts of things. That's why companies employ them.


 For turning the silicon into
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**And CFLs can be energy badgeted just as well, if not with slightly more
complexity.

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**I don't know what the energy cost of manufacture is, for LEDs, but I'll
bet it is lower than CFLs. Moreover, since a large chunk of the energy cost
involves the cost of aluminium, since that aluminium is infinitely
recyclable, the total energy cost would likely be very competitive.

 Whilst there have been some major advances in
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**Wrong on all counts. In my kitchen, I use a range of lighting, depending
on what I need to do. The low Voltage halogens provide excellent, high
intensity light, but with poor dispersion. I also use an 11 Watt T5 fluoro
for day-to-day bench work. I recently purchased some of these:

http://www.dealextreme.com/feedbacks/BrowseReviews.dx/sku.80310

Not only is light output almost double that of the fluoro (measured with a
light meter), but it does so on-axis and all off-axis positions too (easily
100+ degrees of spread). Colour temperature is very close to that of the
halogens. I already have a number applications planned for them. I don't
know how long they'll last. Further: I've been buying these things for many
years (at least 10 years):

http://www.ledsales.com.au/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath14%8_190

They're inexpensive, good quality, long lasting and have a respectably wide
light spread.

Of course, there has been the venerable Luxeon emitters, which are available
in up to 120 degree spread and have been for many years.



 As to not experiencing the same longevity as you with
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**I suggest you read this:

http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and-tests/household/energy-and-water/saving-energy/compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.aspx

"After 6000 hours (December 2010), several good performers were still going
strong. All had dimmed since the start of our test, but the best performers
had dimmed comparatively little - if you had one of these in your home, its
gradual dimming over three (or more) years would probably not be
noticeable."

The test involved a large mnumber of lamps. Quite a different scenario to
yours and mine.

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**I would posit that ALL manufacturers of CFLs (and ICs) are in it for the
money.

 They have no concern at all for the 'green' credentials
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**It doesn't offend me in the slightest. Just as there are a number of
quality manufacturers of automobiles, like Hyundai, Honda and Toyota, there
are also a number of manufacturers of crap automobiles, like Chery and Tata.
A prospective buyer has access to the same information about these vehicles
that I do and anyone who buys a Tata or a Chery does so in the knowledge
that they are crap automobiles. Same deal with CFLs. I've made the mistake
of buying some cheap CFLs. I will not do so again.

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**Not so. I would posit that BMW buyers are fools. BMW cars have a average
reputation for reliability, average fuel economy, ordinary stylinbg (IMO),
expensive spare parts and are no safer than (say) a Toyota/Lexus. Even a
Hyundai can probably beat the BMW in a number of areas. Particularly price.

 The cheaper makes will always be bought by the general public,
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**Not everyone wants to be gouged by their local BMW dealer either. BMW is
legendary for it's greed WRT spare parts, service and a host of other issues
(here in Australia).

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**Let's try to put that into some kind of perspective:

The quality CFL costs around AUS$5.00, not 5 Quid.
A quality, 100 Watt, (1,000 hour) IC lamp used to cost around AUS$1.00. The
replacement halogens are more expensive (about $3.50).

If UK residents are paying 5 Quid for quality, government subsidised CFLs,
then there is something seriously wrong with the system. We can land them
way across the other side of the planet (mine were made in China) for less
than you can buy them.

 If
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**There is something seriously wrong with your prices. They're far too high
for CFLs. Our prices are much lower and there's no subsidies.

 And
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**Never say "never".

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**OK. I can't provide you with any more data than I already have. If you
cannot counter my data, then we must accept that mine is the most accurate
available. Your 'gut feel' doesn't count.

 because there are none that FULLY analyse ALL
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**It does add up. A CFL costs around 6 times as much, energy-wise, to make,
compared to an IC lamp.

 that
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**You keep neglecting that it was _me_ who provided the data regarding the
energy costs of production of the two lamps.

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**I was directly addressing your claims that CFLs had a life-span that was
considerably less than that claimed. Here in Australia (and, presumably, in
Europe) such data must be able to be justified to consumer regulators.
Severe fines can result for manufacturers who fail to live up to the claims
of their products. AFIK, Philips has not been fined for their longevity
claims. Moreover, the article I directed you to has indicated that most
samples were very reliable.

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http://www.choice.com.au/consumer-action/sustainability/energy-efficiency/compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.aspx
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**Er, nope. I understand EXACTLY why people want IC lamps. They're cheap.
Upfront. That, of course, is the short-sighted approach.

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**Bollocks! Read this:

www.ipcc.ch

Read AR4 IN FULL. If you feel that AR4 is in error, then you should submit a
page by page rebuttal.


 Only in the media.

**Er, nope. SCIENCE has released the data. The media publishes whatever
their editorial people or owners tell them to. Scientists cite data.

 There are
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**Er, no, there isn't. There are a bunch of liars, charlatans and those who
are employed by the fossil fuel industry who publish cherry-picked and
misleading information. In fact, a goodly amount is nothing but lies.


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**Bollocks. One vehicle I have some familiarity with is the Mitsubishi
Corida Turbo. The leaded version delivered 110kW with premium leaded fuel.
The unleaded version delivered 90kW with premium unleaded.

 For sure, there had to be some modification to the
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**It was for manu Australian manufacturers. One had to tool up to use alloy
heads, whilst another just gave up and imported (at huge cost) Japanese
alloy head engines, rather than tooling up.

 Drops in performance of existing engines when
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**Again: Not here in Australia.

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**And as a lubricant for valves.

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**Apparently not:

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Browse?storeId10%151&langId11%0&c_2=2%7Ccat_16849318%7CLight+Bulbs%7C14418038&c_1=1%7Ccategory_root%7CLighting%7C16849318&c_3=3 |cat_14418038|Globes|14327548

And:

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Browse?storeId10%151&langId11%0&c_2=2%7Ccat_16849318%7CLight+Bulbs%7C14418038&c_1=1%7Ccategory_root%7CLighting%7C16849318&c_3=3 |cat_14418038|Candle+Light+Bulbs|14327550

And:

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Browse?storeId10%151&langId11%0&c_2=2%7Ccat_16849318%7CLight+Bulbs%7C14418038&c_1=1%7Ccategory_root%7CLighting%7C16849318&c_3=3 |cat_14418038|Standard%2FGLS+Bulbs|14327554



 You can't get a proper golf ball
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**They do, indeed.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

"Trevor Wilson"

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http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and-tests/household/energy-and-water/saving-energy/compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.aspx


** A laughably worthless test, not in any way related to normal use.

Something the rabid green lunatics at Choice are FAMOUS  for  !!!

Look at the pic  -  all the CFLs are suspended in mid air !!

No light fittings, not even a ceiling above them.

The room is air conditioned too.

And  NO  on /off  cycling at all  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not  ONE  of the  KNOWN  issues with CFLs will be revealed in such a test.


BTW:

One reason that Choice did not cycle the CFLs is that they found it  VERY
difficult to do.

If you try to switch on 10 or more CFLs at once, it will trip the lighting
circuit breaker ( 8 amp) regularly  -   with over 200 it will not even be
possible at all.

CFLs have large inrush surges, up to 20 amps peak or more for long enough to
active the magnetic trip on lighting breakers.

Looks like the CFLs in that test were powered from a wall outlet (ie using a
16 amp breaker) and brought on in groups of 10 ( using several multi-way
power boards) until they were all lit and left like that for 12 months.

Total Bollocks.

The other green lunatic drivel quoted in the article makes me wanna puke.



.... Phil





Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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Not only that, but by the time the 9000 hours (375 days @ 24H a day)
was up, most of the CFL bulbs tested would have been obsolete and
would have been superseded by other designs, or sourced from another
Chinese manufacturer who was now the cheapest, and while they may look
the same, they would likely use a different circuit, and probably
different parts as well - again sourced from who is now the cheapest
supplier.

 Economic crisis would make this situation worse, with companies
involved closing and downsizing all over the place.


It would be like doing longevity tests on motherboards or hard drives.
None of the units tested would still be current or on sale by the time
the test was finished.


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You would have loved 4 corners last week then, I had never seen such
blatant propaganda in support of the Gillard government and the carbon
tax.

Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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http://www.jenman.com.au/news_article.php?id3D%262

This article tends to reinforce what you said about Choice.



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Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

Well, I guess we're never going to agree on any aspect of this. You seem
predisposed to take the wrong way, a number of points that I have repeatedly
made, but ho-hum, it's been an interesting line of chat, and at least it
hasn't descended into a screaming match as is so often the case in these
discussions  :-)

As to the bulbs you have found online, I must admit that I hadn't managed to
come up with the eco halogens in a pearl envelope - if indeed they actually
have got one when the item is in your hand. All the rest of the ones that
you found, have clear envelopes, as I said, because the pearl envelopes have
been banned, though Christ knows for what eco-bollox reasons. I have a bar
of 4 R50 spots in the room I am in right now, and another two as wall
mounted uplighters in my lounge. These used to do a lovely job of providing
targeted light in the computer room, and accent light in the lounge, or
reduced light for TV watching, when they had a pearlised front. Since they
banned the pearlised ones, the clear-fronted version that is now the only
one available, looks awful. Instead of a nice even light - the whole purpose
of pearlising in the first place - you now get a harsh uneven set of rings
of light wherever they are pointing, and images of the filament. Trust me,
it is now very hard to find to find any light bulbs here, with the correct
physical size and glass properties, to make them acceptable in decorative
light fittings.

And not all CFLs are subsidised. Only the ones that are dirt cheap in the
first place. Then subsidised via the power companies under government
direction, via green taxes levied through our energy bills. These taxes are
also been extracted from us and wasted on the useless windmills and other
eyesore technologies, that are also excuses for companies to make obscene
amounts of money from the green mist hysteria that prevails now throughout
the civilised world. So, we have a cheap crappy CFL that is being made even
cheaper by the false price that's being set on it, to get people to buy
them. If you look at energy saving lightbulbs on the Homebase site that you
linked to, you will see that the 'quality' CFLs that you refer to, are all
up in the 3.50 to 5 bracket, as I said. Then, B&Q are flogging cheapo
subsidised ones for between 10 pence and a quid. Which ones, in the cash
strapped times that we are currently suffering, are most people going to
buy, given that they can no longer buy what they *really* want ?

Anyway, enough time spent on this now. Been enjoyable.

Arfa


Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 17:54:07 +0100, "Arfa Daily"

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Humor me for a moment.  Take a digital camera photo of your favorite
CFL lamp.  Turn off all the other sources of light.  What color do you
get?  Here's mine:
<
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/FEIT-23w.jpg
See a problem perhaps?

Extra credit.  Find various sheets of blank paper with an assortment
of brightness from about 85 to 105.  Photograph those using either a
CFL lamp and an incandescent lamp source.  What colors do you get?
(Note that the 105 brightness contains phosphors resulting in the
reflected light actually being brighter than the incident light).

You might want to buy a cheap LED UV flashlight and a diffraction
grating, for more fun with lighting.
<http://www.scientificsonline.com/holographic-diffraction-grating-film-10036.html


--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

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Or, from the same source (as well as Amazon, etc.) this thing
<http://www.scientificsonline.com/precision-economy-spectrometer.html
which includes a nm scale. Some examples of what it shows at
<http://home.comcast.net/~mcculloch-brown/astro/spectrostar.html

--
Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA

Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors


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Some interesting findings there. Today, this dropped into my email

http://www.ledlighting-eetimes.com/en/osram-s-near-omnidirectional-led-lamp-to-replace-75w-incandescent-lamp.html?cmp_id=7&news_id22%2907475

Looks as though it might address some of the points I made, particularly in
regard to the (typically) non-omnidirectional light from a LED lamp. I had
long wondered why the cooling core for the LEDs was not made spherical, so
that the light would be omni.

Arfa


Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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<http://www.scientificsonline.com/holographic-diffraction-grating-film-10036.html
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http://www.ledlighting-eetimes.com/en/osram-s-near-omnidirectional-led-lamp-to-replace-75w-incandescent-lamp.html?cmp_id=7&news_id22%2907475
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Sounds good,It would cost me about aud $2000 for lamps for this house

Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
Your point wrt LEDs only having limited directional output is important, for
most of the commonly available types.
It was easily seen that filament lighting was omnidirectional, and very
evenly dispersed by internal coatings applied to the envelopes.

The common T-1-3/4 LED is essentially good for a panel indicator, not a
space illuminating/lighting device.
Even the more powerful 1W and larger devices wouldn't throw any light if not
for the lenses and a good reflector, The reflector area needs to be about
30-50x that of the LED lens to throw much light for any distance
(counterproductive for a compact design).. and then the results are a bright
spot surrounded by a much dimmer halo.
Also, the higher output devices need to be attached to heatsinks.

The EE Times article image is half-assed, at best, and where do they get
writers/reporters today? They can't provide a link to go directly to the
manufacturers' products that they report on, but instead only provide a link
so you can go look it up yourself.

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/News/General_Interest_Press/2011/110825_Parathom_Pro_Classic_A75_Advanced.html

This fuzzy image looks like an artist created it.. it might be expected that
the actual construction materials are clear.. I just hope it's not glass,
because every simpleton already knows that glass production is destroying
the planet.
It sorta looks like a hemisphere of LEDs and a reflector/diffuser over it.
There doesn't appear to be any obtrusive heat sinking like the flying saucer
shapes I've seen in the stores lately.
There you have it.. these lights will pay for themselves. Step right up,
folks.
This here is a new Dimension.

The listed efficiency of a 75W incandescent is shown as Zero.. but it's
actually 100% or more when it's turned off, and it might only cost $1
(although I regularly see them for lower prices).

So, maybe this is the root issue, that people today are too GD lazy to turn
off lights when they're not being used (doesn't matter that the govt has
strongly recommended it, for years now).

If the efficiency of a 75W IC lamp is zero, then watt about a 100W.. minus
25?
It's already been established that the heating value (of the mostly infrared
light) from IC lamps will reduce home heating system loads.

The Chinese (government-backed) factories could likely tool up within a
couple of weeks to closely copy this lamp, or a looky-like the same, and
flood the market.

Since few people are aware of the disclaimer that comes with nearly every
poduct produced today (and for recent decades).. "Specifications subject to
change".

Might wanna get the extended warranty on these new lights.. the "limited"
package warranty might look like swiss cheese.

One of my curiosities will be how tolerant the new LED lamps will be of line
voltage spikes/surges, regardless of what the predicted lifetimes are.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............


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Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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**Wrong. Luxeon emitters have been available for many years, with a 120
degree spread.

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**Nor does ANY light source, you nong. You may also care to note that I
posted photographs that disproved your last nonsensical claim about such
things. You failed to acknowledge this fact.


 The reflector area needs
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**Here is a photo of the two torches from my previous posting:

http://s1112.photobucket.com/albums/k497/Zaphod1000 /

Look at the size difference. Look at the amount of light "thrown" by each
torch onto a dark wall. Which is greater? Which is the more useful, more
portable torch?

When will you cease making insane, unsupportable statements?


 and then the
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**The results are what the designers want them to be.


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**So? The CPU in my computer must be attached to a heat sink. It ain't
rocket science. If I dropped both torches, whilst swtiched on, the LED torch
has a much better chance of survival.

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**This would be a pot, kettle, balck kind of moment. Your half-arsed
comments are now entering into legend. Shall we review them?


 They can't provide a link to go directly
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http://www.osram.com/osram_com/News/General_Interest_Press/2011/110825_Parathom_Pro_Classic_A75_Advanced.html
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**No, it is not. Read the cite again. CAREFULLY. Don't try to interpret what
is written.

. but
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**Sheer idiocy.


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**The efficiency of a 75 Watt IC almps is NOT zero. It is something like 2%
~ 5%.


 then watt about a 100W..
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**They MIGHT. In Winter AND if the lamps are placed floor level and/or if
there are some air circulation systems in place. Either way, using IC lamps
for heating is hit and miss, at best. Heat pumps are dramatically more
efficient. By as much as 400%, in fact.

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**Any sensible designer takes such things into account. My halogen
downlights are operated via similar technology to that which drives LEDs.
They're reasonably well protected against damage.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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**The halogen torch is on the left.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

"Jeff Liebermann = Nut case "

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** Be better to put idiots like you in straight jackets.


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** Irrelevant, totally.


 Here's mine:
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**  Nope.



....  Phil



Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

Phil Allison screeched:
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   Who the hell let you out of yours?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
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Strait-jacket, Phil, not straight.



Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

"William Sommerwanker the Fuckwit PEDANT "


 ** Be better to put idiots like you in straightjackets.


    Correct spelling.




Re: OT Re: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

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I did correct the spelling. You didn't have to ask again.

"Strait" means "narrow" -- the jacket greatly restricts its wearer's
movements. It does not hold the wearer "straight" -- quite the opposite.



Re: Sommerwanker= Fuckwit PEDANT
The fact that a dictionary accepts a gross misspelling of a word does not
make it right.

The English language -- unlike the French -- does not have an "authority"
controlling its content or usage, so it can be corrupted. "Straightjacket"
is wrong.



Re: Sommerwanker= Fuckwit PEDANT
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Well, I always thought it was "strait" jacket.

Possibly "Straight" Jacket is probably an American version of the
term, the Americans are good at spelling words differently, dropping
and reversing letters, compared to other english speaking peoples.

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