I have a Kenmore induction cooktop that is about 18 years old, OEM from Sanyo. Some of the power transistors are blown. The only marking is T30G40. I _think_ the package is TO3PL but I could be wrong. A simple google search turns up specs like 400v 30a 300w and 1000v 30a 350w.
Could someone please find a cross reference to a part I can actually buy.
thanks,
... jeff
On 1 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com put finger to keyboard and composed:
FWIW, I'm guessing the transistor is a Shindengen part.
- Franc Zabkar
-- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.
I also have a Kenmore induction cooktop that has bad T30G40 transistors. Has anyone found where to buy them? I need ten in case someone wants to put a large order to a distributor, and offer to resell them to end users like me.
Raymond
On 12 Sep 2005 17:05:54 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@prtcmail.prtc-dot-net.no-spam.invalid (Raymondj) put finger to keyboard and composed:
Here are the specs:
Part Number = T30G40 Description = Si NPN Power Bipolar Junction Transistor Manufacturer = Shindengen V(BR)CEO (V) = 400 V(BR)CBO (V) = 800 I(C) Abs.(A) Collector Current = 30 Absolute Max. Power Diss. (W) = 200 h(FE) Min. Static Current Gain = 80 f(T) Min. (Hz) Transition Freq = 7.0M t(d) Max. (s) Delay time. = 3.0u t(s) Max. (s) Storage time. = 3.0u t(f) Max. (s) Fall time. = 1.0u Package = SIP Military = N
B&D Enterprises
-- Franc Zabkar
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
I'm late to the party but did you ever find suppler for the T30G40 transistor? I am trying to fix my cooktop as well. I've had only one hit -- a sketchy one for Hong Kong Micyoic Electronics. Haven't tried to contact them yet.
Thanks in advance.
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------------------------------------- Jeff, Did you ever find a supplier or cross reference for T30G40?
I'm on the hunt as well
Thanks, ..Kap
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Have you ever thought about entering T30G40 into a Google search?
Google quickly found: 800V Vcbo, 30A Ic Low frequency power silicon NPN transistor Operational temperature range from 0°C to 150°C.
V(BR)CEO (V)=400 V(BR)CBO (V)=800 I(C) Abs.(A) Collector Current=30 Absolute Max. Power Diss. (W)=200 h(FE) Min. Static Current Gain=80 f(T) Min. (Hz) Transition Freq=7.0M t(d) Max. (s) Delay time.=3.0u t(s) Max. (s) Storage time.=3.0u t(f) Max. (s) Fall time.=1.0u Package=SIP Military=N
As much as I hate gmail and GoogleGroups, Google itself is quite handy!
73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQOn 4/17/2011 3:31 PM Barry spake thus:
With all due respect, since often people don't make even the minimal effort to find something by "Googling" (gawd, how I hate that that's now a verb!), you didn't find what was being asked for here. Which was a cross-reference or substitution guide for this device, not a definition of its parameters.
I find this is true with a lot of semiconductors and other things out there: it's fairly easy to find datasheets and technical details such as you put up there, but often difficult or impossible to come up with a simple answer to "what other devices can I substitute for this one, since there's no way in hell I'll ever be able to obtain one of these?".
(Of course, you can always find another device that matches these parameters, but that's not a trivial exercise, unless one has some handy references available. One *might* be able to do this using DigiKey's parameter-matching item search, but I couldn't say for sure, not having looked up transistors using it.)
-- The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization: yo wassup nuttin wan2 hang k where here k l8tr by - from Usenet (what's *that*?)
To someone who understands these specs, and knows which ones are critical to the application, this is all that is needed. To someone who wants to buy a NTE "drop-in" part, I suggest you go to one of the Asian parts suppliers who advertise that they can get the original part.
I found a part rated at 1000 BVces, 450 BVceo, 30 amps, and 250 watts. It has a f(sub)T of 10 MHz and a Vce(sat) of 2 volts at 20 amps. Now YOU tell me if this will work or not... Both Mouser and Digi-Key found this part.
Barry WA4VZQ
Welcome back. You were missed.
NTE does not list a substitute. I've dealt with some of the "obsolete parts" vendors. Figure on about a $200 minimum, whether you want 1 part or 100 parts. When I once absolutely had to buy from one of these vendors, the negotiation to delivery ordeal took about 4 weeks.
I thought this was going to be easy. I was wrong.
From the original data sheet at:
With a saturation voltage of 2V at 30A, it's certainly an IGBT. Lots to chose from on Digikey, but not in the package shown. I'll guess the package is a TO-264 or TO-3PL
I couldn't find a close match with the correct package on Digikey or Mouser. All the TO-264 package devices are higher power, with higher saturation voltages. Some compromises will need to be made here.
For those that have never used the Digikey parts search, it's best to explain how to use it by example. Start here for discrete IGBT's.
Under "Package", highlight "TO-264". Hit the "Apply Filters" and notice how the choices are reduced. Notice that under "Ic Max", there's no choice for "30A". Pick "40A" and again hit "Apply Filters". You should see 2 devices listed, neither of which is suitable. Try some of the other TO-264 package variations for more trial and error. Eventually, it finds:
in a TO-264AA package, which is not an exact substitute, but might work. Someone please check my guesswork. If you look at the data sheet, it shows a gate instead of a base lead, but if you read the fine print, it's really an IGBT, and not a FET.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Thanks, Jeff
To begin, it is really a conventional NPN, not an IGBT. You have to learn that Digi-Key and Mouser are not perfect in their searches. I had to relax the specs to find the part - like using 20 amps rather than 30. However when I checked the datasheet, the part was really rated at 30 amps. Go figure...
Look at the very high base current. This is how the low Vce(sat) is obtained. Also note the Vbe(sat).
It's a TO-247 case. Actually starting the search with the package style, in my opinion, is a poor place to start. You need to match the critical specs first. In this case, high breakdown voltage, high current, and low saturation voltage were the critical specs to match first.
To avoid all the suspense, look at an OnSemi MJW18020. OnSemi even has Spice2, PSpice, and Spice3 models as well as a Saber model for it. While Digi-Key does not stock them, Mouser has them at less than $6 a pop.
I know we are dating ourselves here, Jeff, but bipolar transistors are much like vacuum tubes in that triodes are triodes and with some changes in circuit values (and rewiring, of course) just about any triode can be made to work in a pinch. Actually bipolar transistors generally are even easier to substitute than vacuum tubes.
Do you have an NTE replacement book handy? Notice how many transistors can be replaced by the NTE123AP. Look up the specs on a 2N3904. The 2N3904 is far cheaper ($0.07) than the NTE part and can probably be used anywhere the NTE123AP ($1.25) can be used.
73, Barry WA4VZQOne other thing when using the Digi-Key or Mouser search engines... If you need a part with, say, a BVceo of 100 volts or more, you can highlight 100, 150, 200, and 250 volts at the same time. ?This will usually speed up the search. I do like Mouser's engine in that it immediately tells you that no part is available with that specification, while Digi-Key waits until you do the filtering - not knowing which spec cannot be met.
I'm not sure. Getting a Vce(sat) of 2V at 30A is a difficult feat with most conventional NPN xsistors. Low saturation voltage is the major benefit of IGBT. However, the original data sheet specifies the device beta, which is not normally specified with an IGBT, which acts more like a MOSFET.
Data entry error? I rarely have to lookup anything by specifications so the problem is fairly new to me. Usually, I just lookup the part number, and dig through the mess of package mutations. I haven't found too many errors.
Ib = 5Amps and Vbe(sat) = 2.5V. Now, I'm sure it's an IGBT. Such a high base voltage and current is a characteristic of IGBT devices. See typical curves at:
If it were an NPN transistor, the curves would be compressed around Vbe(sat) = 0.7v to 1.0v (or slightly more if it has emitter current balancing resistors inside) and have an upward slope.
I'm still undecided if it's an IGBT or a common xsistor, but I'm begining to agree with you.
I beg to differ (again). The original T30G40 data sheet shows the package as 20.5 x 26.5 mm with a 3.3mm hole. The TO-247 package is
16.0 x 21 mm with a 3.0mm hole. The TO-264 is 20 x 20 mm with a 3.3mm hole. Neither is a perfect match, but methinks the TO-264 is closer, especially due to having the same larger hole size.I beg to differ (yet again). Finding a suitable replacement that doesn't fit in whatever is being repaired is rather useless. By reducing the search to only those items that can actually be used as a physical substitute, the search scope is drastically reduced.
I went for package, Vceo(max), Vce(sat), Ic(max), and Pt(max) in that order.
Nope. Other then my objection to the package (hole too small), the beta is too low. The original has a minimum beta of 80, while this xsistor shows a minimum of 5.5 at 20A.
Unfortunately, the device I excavated doesn't specify the beta.
Argh!
I like to think of FET's as a solid state analogue to vacuum tubes. I was in college when the transition from tube to semiconductors was taught. Over the 6 years of various skools, I started with tubes, delved into bipolar, and graduated with FET's. Keeping them untangles was not a trivial exercise, but I'm comfortable working in all three areas.
Books? They tend to obsolete as soon as they're printed. I prefer online lookups.
The online lookup doesn't have a reverse NTE -> JEDEC lookup so I can't check how many the devices the NTE123AP replaces.
Sure. The NTE123AP is probably a relabeled 2N3904 or 2N2222, both very common parts. You're also paying for handling, bubble packaging, cataloging, distribution, and retail floor space for the NTE part. The
2N3904 part is sold by the thousands, while NTE parts tend to be sold one at a time. Of course the NTE parts are more expensive.Oops. I never noticed that you can select more than one. Thanks.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Much beyond a volt or so, the curves should be linear, i.e. the Shockley relationship becomes dominated by a pure resistance. I would expect the device has multiple emitter balancing resistors to keep a hot spot from forming at high currents.
My bad. I only looked at the lead spacing. With an obsolete part with unusual specs, matching the case is just icing on the cake. Matching the electrical specs is usually difficult enough.
I chose Vceo, Ic, Pt, and Vce(sat) and left the case as "icing." Mounting arrangements can be modified, but you cannot change the electrical specs.
Unfortunately the Shindengen device does not list the conditions at which hFE is measured. The application is an induction heater so hfe (ac) is more important than hFE (DC). The higher fT of the OnSemi device suggests that the hfe falls off less rapidly than in the Shindengen device. With most induction heaters relying on self-excited power oscillators, the actual hFE should not be that important. Do you remember in the early days of transistors the exceptionally wide Beta spreads of a given device? We, as engineers, learned to design circuits that were not sensitive to Beta spread. Of course my experience is with BIG vacuum tube dielectric heaters. [Need any NOS 3CX10000A3's?]
The IGBT is a voltage driven device and the gate only draws current due to its capacitance, so Beta is a meaningless term with an IGBT. Instead you use gfs measured in amps/volt (much like gm in a pentode tube).
In my case both vacuum tubes and bipolar transistors were taught as an undergraduate. By graduate school, tubes were dropped and field effect devices were added. The nice thing about tubes was the fact that they were usually forgiving of short term mistakes! :-) And then there is the built-in pilot light!
I quit counting after I found several hundred devices in the first few pages. My point is that a small signal NPN will generally substitute for most other small signal NPN's.
But if you have a 2N3904, or a 2N706, or even a PN2222, why bother to order the NTE123AP? My point is that unless the circuit is unusual, it will probably work fine with what you might have on hand.
Tomorrow I am off to visit WA5KSC, who I knew in high school, to troubleshoot an old Heath Marauder (HX-10). After high school, we went off to different colleges and lost touch. We reconnected after 45 years. We were best friends then and we are best friends again now. That is one of the nice things about ham radio. And working on old vacuum tube gear is still fun!
73, Barry WA4VZQkaplanB had written this in response to
I have learned a LOT from your posts and this adventure. I think I have learned enough to say that what I'm trying to find a substitute for (Shindengen T30G40) is not an IGBT or a NPN. It is a PNP! My thinking is based on three main factors.
I've drawn my own schematic and the cooktop (Kenmore 564.4498512) seems to look like a "quasi- resonant" circuit I found when researching induction cooktop designs. These designs use PNP transistor.
Second, the voltage at the base, measured on a working element, is -56 Vdc when idle and -60 Vdc when energized. Doesn't' that "turn on" a PNP transistor?
Third, pulled the transistors off the board and one of the three power transistors tests OK as a PNP.
When we all thought this was an NPN I had agreed with Dr. Ornitz's assessment that an On Sem MJW18020 would perhaps work as a substitute. Now, I'm looking for a PNP version but having no luck so far.
I'm thankful for all the "wise guys" who weigh in on this issue.
Kap B
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Not necessarily... You have to measure the base voltage in respect to the emitter. Assuming that it's a silicon device, you should see -0.65V to -0.8V at the base with respect to the emitter. That will turn a PNP transistor on. If the difference in voltage between base and emitter less than 0.65V, then the transistor isn't on.
Questionable assumption... How do you know the others are PNP units? Do they have the same part numbers?
Here's a quick spec on the T30G40 transistor:
Si NPN Power BJT Shindengen Electric Mfg. Co., Ltd. V(BR)CEO (V)=400 V(BR)CBO (V)=800 I(C) Abs.(A) Collector Current=30 Absolute Max. Power Diss. (W)=200 h(FE) Min. Static Current Gain=80 f(T) Min. (Hz) Transition Freq=7.0M t(d) Max. (s) Delay time.=3.0u t(s) Max. (s) Storage time.=3.0u t(f) Max. (s) Fall time.=1.0u Package=SIP Military=N
That indicates that it's an NPN unit; not PNP. Are you sure that you're testing the transistors correctly? Maybe you should post a quick narrative on how you're trying to troubleshoot. And be careful that you know the polarity of the test leads of the ohms function of your multimeter... A few will fool you.
-- David dgminala at mediacombb dot net
------------------------------------- I appreciate the thoroughness of your questions.
Of the three transistors, two test bad and one as a PNP (out of the circuit). They are all the same.
I've tested the same transistors on the other working elements and they test as PNP (in circuit).
The data you quote is a redaction from the actual data sheet which I have a copy of. However, nowhere on the Shindenge Electric T30G40 data sheet does it say this is a NPN or a PNP.
I have not found a suitable PNP substitute yet.
Thank you.
Kap
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