Possible loose neutral?

All,

Short story: On a US-standard 240/120 100 A service, I am seeing 8 to 9 volts difference between phases when a 120 V 1.3 kW microwave is running. Is this excessive, or acceptable?

Long story:

For the past few mornings, the UPS (APC Smart-UPS 600) in my office has been switching on to battery power for a few minutes, even when the lights in the rest of the house hadn't flickered or gone out. I finally put a meter (Metex ME-11 DMM) on the wall outlet supplying the UPS while the UPS was running and found out it was probably tripping on _over_voltage: the wall socket was delivering over 130 volts!

After a bit of experimentation, I discovered that the voltage went up when the microwave in the kitchen was running, which is why it happened in the mornings when the other half was making tea. The microwave is on one of the 20 A kitchen circuits, while my office is on a 20 A receptacle circuit with a couple of other rooms. It's a GE microwave, about 10 years old, 120 V 1300 W per the nameplate. I also noticed that the voltage rise was less pronounced when the central air conditioner was running. The compressor is 240 V and is fused and breakered at 40 A.

Suspecting a loose neutral, I inspected the breaker panel. Nothing looked out of place. I tried tightening all of the screws on the neutral/ground bus bar. They all took a bit of tightening - less than

1/8 turn - but none were really badly loose. I made very sure that the neutral coming in from the meter was tight at the bus bar. I have the US-standard 240/120 service at, I believe, 100 amps, and a GE split-bus panel. It is original to the house (1969), although the breakers have all been replaced. To my knowledge, the kitchen circuits are two separate 20 A circuits with their own NM cable, not split like a Canadian kitchen circuit.

After I tightened the screws, I went around in the house and made sure most things were turned off. There were still a few computers running, but the TV, stereo, lights, etc were all off. The air conditioner was also shut off. I measured the voltage between the neutral/ground bus bar and each hot lug with the microwave off and then with the microwave running, heating about 8 oz (230 mL) of water in a coffee cup. I then turned the A/C on and tried again. Results...

A/C uWave left right l-r notes off off 122.5 123.2 -0.7 run 1 off on 126.3 117.6 8.7

off off 121.9 121.3 0.6 run 2 off on 126.1 116.7 9.4

on off 119.6 123.3 -3.7 on on 123.7 118.5 5.2

I know that the two sides of the service will very rarely be in exact balance, but the 8 to 9 V difference seems somewhat high. Is this considered within reasonable bounds, or should I have the power company out? Or should I chase the wiring in the house further? When I moved into the house 5+ years ago, most of the receptacles were original and back-wired. I changed all of them that are regularly used for new spec grade side-wired receptacles.

Out of curiosity, I measured the voltage drop across each breaker. This was with most of the loads shut off, so it may not be too useful, but I found no breaker over 100 mV and most under 40 mV.

Let me know if you need more information. Thanks for your help!

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds
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" snipped-for-privacy@worldnet.att.net" bravely wrote to "All" (05 Jun 05 00:03:03) --- on the heady topic of "Possible loose neutral?"

mr> From: snipped-for-privacy@worldnet.att.net mr> Xref: aeinews alt.home.repair:24350 alt.engineering.electrical:22924 mr> sci.electronics.repair:49687

mr> All,

mr> Short story: On a US-standard 240/120 100 A service, I am seeing 8 to mr> 9 volts difference between phases when a 120 V 1.3 kW microwave is mr> running. Is this excessive, or acceptable?

Had a recent similar circustance with the microwave popping the breaker every so often. Turned out the electric counter had an electrode contact that was burnt in the socket. This after a long diagnostic where the building entrance lines were replaced and a new higher amperage circuit upgrade for the MW oven. It was a tough one to find because it was intermittant and only had about a 1 volt drop at full power. Yours seems much more straightforward with 9 volts. In fact that is pretty severe! It may be your polepig's ground that is bad.

A*s*i*m*o*v

... Dunno if we'll get that past the CSA und UL 'owever.

Reply to
Asimov

All,

Thanks for the advice! To clarify something that was asked a few times, all of the numbers in the chart I gave were measured directly at the breaker panel. I took the cover off the panel and put one meter lead on the neutral/ground bus bar and the other meter lead on one of the two screw terminals where the hot wires from the meter are connected.

If it is a loose neutral, it almost has to be on the power company's side. My breaker panel is right on the other side of the wall from the meter... the supply wires into the breaker panel enter through the rear of the box and I presume they are coming out the rear of the meter can as well. The neutral connection to the neutral/ground bus bar in the panel appears to be tight.

I will call the utility in the morning and see what they have to say. I'll post back with further developments.

Thanks!

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

Short version: Utility claims they fixed something and the test results are better (3.1 V difference as opposed to 9.4 V), but I'm still not sure what exactly they fixed.

Long version:

I called the utility on Monday afternoon about 2 PM, then hung around the house, hoping to catch the lineman and hear what he found, if anything. The utility did try to call at 7:03 PM per the Caller ID. I was in another room and the machine picked up before I did; I stopped the machine and picked up and got silence. By 9 PM I hadn't heard anything, hadn't noticed the lights going out, and I hadn't retested, so I decided to call again today (Tuesday).

I called today at about 2 PM and the call center rep said that they came out yesterday and "repaired a connection at the weatherhead". To me, the "weatherhead" is the thing at the top of the conduit running up from my meter, where the wires make almost a 180 degree turn and go out through a plastic disc with holes in it. I went out and looked at it from the ground and couldn't see anything different. I can't see my connections at the pole very well, so I'm not sure if anything changed there.

I decided to retest. I measured again at the breaker panel, with most of the loads in the house shut off except as noted. The results were:

A/C uWave left right l-r notes off off 120.4 118.7 1.7 run 1 off on 120.9 117.8 3.1 on off 118.7 118.2 0.5 on on 119.0 117.1 1.9

off off 121.2 119.7 1.5 run 2 off on 121.5 119.0 2.5 on off 119.5 119.5 0.0 on on 120.0 118.2 1.8

The 3.1 volt spread does seem to be an improvement from the previous result, which was a 13.1 volt spread (-3.7 to +9.4).

I climbed up on the roof and inspected the connections at the top of the meter conduit. I have an insulated crimp splice on each hot wire, and a bare crimp splice on the neutral wire. I'm pretty sure that the hot wire splices weren't changed, as each one has a small crack in the insulation that has been there for a while, and I'm assuming the lineman would have replaced the insulation sleeve if he installed a new connector. I am not sure if the bare neutral splice was changed; even though I haven't inspected it carefully in the past, it doesn't _look_ brand new - there are some black spots (oxidation?) on it, and the engraved markings are easy to read because dirt seems to have accumulated in the grooves. There weren't any telltale bits of wire lying on the roof or shiny places on the wire next to the connector, either. The thing that holds the mechanical tension on the bare netural wire (basically a ramp on the wire and a mating ramp with a metal loop around the conduit) hasn't been changed.

I'm also pretty sure that they didn't do anything to the meter. First, my lights didn't go out. Also, even though I didn't write down the serial number on the meter seal before I called, it's at least the same type of seal, and the metal loop through the meter can tab isn't shiny as I would expect with a new seal.

It's entirely possible that the bad connection was at the pole and I'm mistaken about where the "weatherhead" is, or that the path from the lineman to the call center four states away is lossy and noisy. I'm curious to know what exactly was repaired, but the test results seem to show an improvement, so maybe I should just be happy.

Thanks to all for the advice and assistance!

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

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