isolation transformer needed

"Ground" is a concept. It's convention; that is we agree on the definition. (I know, agreement is a foreign concept to you...just go with it.) We drive a metal stake in the earth and call it ground. If you don't put any current in the stake, you can use it as a reference for all measurements. If you need a differential measurement, just measure the two relative to "ground" and subtract. Works just fine in concept.

As a practical matter, it takes much less "technology" to make a local single-ended measurement relative to a "common" point. That common point is often pretty close to "ground"...doesn't have to be, it's just easier to work with and easier to make safe.

This paradigm creates systems that are "safe" in most cases, when they're working properly and are still safe under the most common fault conditions as long as you leave the covers on the system. When you open the box, many safety assumptions don't apply.

There are exceptions, but when you use an isolation transformer to "disconnect" the local common from the conceptual "ground", you don't necessarily make a properly functioning system any less "safe" under normal operation.

An Isolation Transformer is not inherently unsafe. But an isolation transformer does NOT make a faulty system SAFE to poke around inside.

What IS unsafe is the stupid things people do with their hands and test equipment believing that the transformer absolves them from any responsibility to THINK about what they're doing. Redefining your own common reference by attaching an arbitrary node inside the faulty supply to your local concept of "ground" is decidedly UnSAFE.

While I'm on the subject of RESPONSIBILITY... People ask questions because the don't know the answer. In many cases, they can't even tell if the advice they're getting is good or bad. One way is to vote. If two, or three or four people said it, it must be true. Problem is that the most vocal newsgroup denizens are demonstrating the least ability to think about and understand the consequences of their advice. And there are WAY more than two people giving bad advice here.

One way to judge advice is the tone of the thread. Name-calling is what you do when you don't have a logical leg to stand on. A spirited, yet civil, debate often leads to consensus. That advice is more likely to be helpful. As soon as the name-calling starts, you can't trust any advice from the thread. Some of the input may be helpful, but you can't tell which, or you wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place.

We have the responsibility to do no harm, and argue logically against unsafe advice.

Doing stupid, unsafe things may work 99% of the time. As long as that 100th time is YOU, I don't have a problem with the odds...I'd buy a ticket to watch. If that 100th time is some innocent guy who took your bad advice, I have a BIG problem.

Reply to
mike
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"mike"

** Or teaching pigs to sing.

** Standard procedure for servicing any unit with an unknown fault is to FIRST see what happens when plugged into a normal AC outlet - ie one with neutral and ground linked at the service box.

That outlet MUST have an RCD fitted as a standard safety precaution for ANYONE working on mains powered equipment while it is energised.

The RCD will trip if the unit has a fault that causes even 10mA of leakage from the AC supply to ground - which includes a short from internal neutral conductors to safety ground.

If the unit is of class 2 ( double insulated ) construction, the external metalwork should be linked to safety ground in order to test the integrity of that insulation and render the unit safe to handle.

Obviously, if the RCD trips under these initial tests the cause MUST be tracked down and dealt with before going any further.

The ONLY time a service tech needs to use a mains isolation transformer is when the unit has a "live chassis" as some TV sets do OR it contains an off-line SMPS that needs detailed analysis with a scope in order to effect repairs.

The tech must be VERY aware that the electric shock protection afforded by the RCD is LOST when the isolation tranny is in use and so use it as sparingly as possible. It a damn good idea to have the isolation tranny VERY visible on the bench to constantly remind the tech it is in use.

When work is completed, the unit should be again connected to a normal, RCD protected, outlet and checked.

If the unit it uses class 2 insulation, the AC leakage current to safety ground should be measured with a suitable load and meter. The leakage current should not exceed 0.5 to 1 mA, depending on the item and the actual AC voltage in use.

There are a host of other checks and inspections a service tech needs to do on and around the AC wiring, fusing devices and any AC power leads and plugs attached to a unit. Any parts that are damaged, worn out or otherwise seem unsafe must be repaired or replaced.

I go through a LOT of AC plugs, fuses and fuse holders in my work.

..... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

It certainly is since in the UK we call a mains ground earth.

Really? You seem to have strange ideas about what is a reverence.

So qualify just how you do this in the workshop.

There are certain rules that apply.

Sigh. I'm utterly amazed you can't see how having both legs of a dangerous voltage floating is safer than having one side of it grounded.

Who said it did? Nothing can make dangerous voltages safe for idiots.

Darwin's rule applies, then. Anyone who doesn't understand potential difference is best suited to having knitting as a hobby.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

What's an RCD? We call it an GFCI on the other side of the pond:

If you put a transformer before or after the GFCI, any leakage current between either side of the xformer secondary will have no path to ground. The GFCI won't trip.

You can prove it to yourself. Find a GFCI. Plug in a common 5, 9,

12, or whatever AC output wall wart into the GFCI. Touch one of the output pins (xformer secondary) to the AC ground somewhere. The GFCI won't trip. Neither will a faulty power supply, sitting on the output of the isolation transformer.

I found this out the hard way. At the advice of a former friend, I built a test box consisting of a variac, isolation transformer, circuit breakers, voltmeter, ammeter, and GFCI. A power cord line input and several wall jacks for the outputs. After getting zapped, shocked, and fried several times without the GFCI ever tripping, I realized that this wasn't going to work. The only real advantage to this derrangement was that I could use my grounded oscilloscope without fear of destroying the scope probe lead.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Thank you for posting this. It answered several questions I've had for a long time.

Read this document carefully, as it is something you will rarely encounter -- a technical document written by someone who actually knows how to write!

Will wonders never cease?

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

Please see page 2.

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Reply to
Leonard Caillouet

Funny that was never on any service literature or diagnostic procedure documentation I ever read. Nor would I have ever made it my own practice as a first step thinking back 30 through 30 years.

But then again this is an internationally mirrored forum so I don't really try to pawn off my particular service procedures as the gospel where the diagnostics flow chart may be much different in certain regions of the globe.

HAND

Reply to
Meat Plow

"Meat Head Moron "

** My post does NOT say that it is the very first step.

It does say that with an unknown but possible PSU fault - connection to a normal RCD protected AC outlet should be done FIRST - before using an isolation tranny.

Obviously, visual inspection comes very first, including carefully checking of the AC plug, lead and fuse if accessible. If the AC fuse is missing or blown, then a major fault is likely.

In the latter case, MY procedure is to install a suitable new AC fuse and gradually bring up the item using a variac - all the time monitoring the current draw from the AC supply with meter specially built for that purpose. If the AC current becomes unusually large ( or the RCD trips) as the AC voltage rises - game over.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Seems to me some expect the use of an isolation transformer to be some form of magic bullet that removes all risks. It doesn't. But can reduce the sort of risk caused by one side of a mains supply being grounded. If you then ground one leg of the output of that transformer by any means you are back to square one. However, I can't think of any case where the use of an isolation transformer *increases* any hazard.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

:
g
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Quite correct. The isolation transformer is a great tool for the workbench if a person knows how to utilize it. That appears to be the problem with some posters here. They have either had no instructions about the use of the isolation transformer on the service bench or they just ignore any instruction they have had.

Reply to
sparky

You wrote this?

"Standard procedure for servicing any unit with an unknown fault is to FIRST"

I have 30+ years in commercial repair Phil. I have my own techniques that I have stood in front of classes of electrical engineer students and lectured upon.

My first usage if a variac dates back to the early 80's. However it was an isolation variac designed for live chassis tv sets. Since most of my work was warranty service we were required to do Hipot checks as a final test. Nowhere do I recall ever needing to plug a set into a GFI/RCD/RCCB to diagnose it.

Reply to
Meat Plow

The golden rule when working on any kind of live gear, isolation tranny or not, is to keep one hand in your pocket (but not too close to the 'spheres'

Ron

Reply to
Ron

"sparky"

Some total MORON

Quite correct.

** It is totally WRONG !!

The isolation transformer is a great tool for the workbench if a person knows how to utilize it.

** Counts a clueless imbecile you out.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Meat Head Moron "

** Only total FUCKHEADS take phases out of context like that.

Boy, oh boy, do YOU ever qualify as one of them.

** Nearly 40 years in my case.

** So what ??

You were doing it an unsafe way for 30 years.

Never to late to do it right.

..... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Well, I sure can. When they listen to someones advice that it is OK to touch either side of the output of the xformer. As Phil pointed out if there is a problem that could be lethal

David

Reply to
David

On 1/2/2010 4:19 PM David spake thus:

That is in no way a fault of the isolation transformer. Might as well blame power lines because some doofus, somewhere told someone that it's OK to touch one side of the line.

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"
Reply to
David Nebenzahl

"David"

" Some pommy retard "

** Aside from the above issue - the number one reason for NOT using an isolation tranny as the usual supply of AC power on a workbench is that the very same tech who has become oblivious to the danger of contacting live AC wiring WILL at some future time and place find themselves working on energised items WITHOUT the benefit of such isolation.

The DANGER is in the false impression of harmlessness that builds up in the mind of the tech.

Old habits die hard - but electricity kills quick.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

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An isolation transformer does not render an item harmless but it does provide the technician with an extra tool to use during his work. As with all things using high voltage common sense must be used. ---- -

- - A thing which seems seriously lacking in this news group.

Reply to
sparky

"David"

" Some pommy retard "

** Aside from the above issue - the number one reason for NOT using an isolation tranny as the usual supply of AC power on a workbench is that the very same tech who has become oblivious to the danger of contacting live AC wiring WILL at some future time and place find themselves working on energised items WITHOUT the benefit of such isolation.

The DANGER is in the false impression of harmlessness that builds up in the mind of the tech.

Old habits die hard - but electricity kills quick.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Then you should be dead by now.

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

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