How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)

I forgot to list the URL which said the C02 has to flow: "Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment and Soda Fountains"

If I leave the inside of the tire valve in (see white cap in the pictures at

the CO2 carbonization does not get to the 50psi you'd like that is in the bottle headspace; but at least the tire valve attached to the hose is operated by the center stem in the tire valve attached to the soda bottle cap.

Yet, if I remove the center stem from the tire valve (see the red cap in the pictures at

I can't get the air chuck to operate (since it depends on the center valve to open up).

I'm thinking of just attaching the red cap open tire valve stem directly to the carbonization hose but even then, I can't, for the life of me, understand the article's wording that says the CO2 needs to "flow". (Specifically it says leaving the valve stem on the valve "does not work because the process requires a continuous flow of CO2 into the bottle via an open connection".)

What I don't understand is where is the continuous flow into an "open connection"?

If I clamp the red bottle cap onto the yellow hose (thereby eliminating the air chuck), it's still a closed system, isn't it? Where does the "flow" of C02 occur (except momentarily until the headspace of the bottle is filled to 50psi or so)?

I'm sure I'm missing something simple ... I just do not understand what I'm missing and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

Indeed! Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup.

Are you suggesting there will be a shortage of hot air?

I built a carbonator once and made several huge mistakes, some of which I see in the article. One mistake resulted in 2 liters of sticky sugar water sprayed all over the kitchen.

The carbonation bottle, as shown, is upside down. You need to bubble the CO2 gas THROUGH the liquid, not on top of it. A seltzer bottle does with with a "siphon tube". That will work allowing right side up carbonation.

You need a way to bleed off the pressure after carbonating the liquid or you will have the equivalent of a bottle rocket. The shutoff valve shown is only part of the puzzle. There needs to be a bleeder valve between the valve and the seltzer bottle. With a siphon tube, you'll need to make sure that you don't suck liquid back into the regulator. Think about a ball-spring type of one-way valve in the filler hose, near the bottle end.

The tire valve stem and air chuck are a lousy idea but do solve an important problem. You need to maintain pressure in the bottle after removing the filler hose. Lots of ways to do that, but the bicycle valve is probably the least effective. Like a selzer bottle, you need seperate paths to fill the bottle and to empty the bottle. If vent the bottle (especially when warm) the gas will simply come out of solution into the air, leaving you with a flat tasting drink.

Chill or cool the liquid BEFORE filling. It will hold more CO2 and taste better.

50 PSI is the recommended maximum pressure for the average bottle rocket. Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. If you want more pressure, get a heavy wall glass bottle (i.e. seltzer bottle) or aluminum container:

Note that the tiny CO2 cartridges used in commercial siphon bottle chargers are filled to about 850 PSI. Commercial bottled seltzer water is delivered at 135 PSI.

Gourmet Syrup

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Hi Jeff, I solved the problem after reading your response!

I thank you for taking your time to help others. I like the upside-down idea and I understand your points about the internal pressure and the need to bleed it off separately - but I wanted to make the right-side-up idea work first.

The original article said, I had to bubble 4 volumes of carbon dioxide into the bottle so I had to figure out how to bubble 4 liters of co2 into a 1 liter bottle.

It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here):

My problem was there is no measurable laminar gas "flow" in either system (1) tire valve with stem, or (2) tire valve w/o stem.

But, without the stem, the c02 molecules continue to "infuse" into the liquid until there are 4 liters of c02 in the 1 liter of liquid.

So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow".

Now I have really good tasting seltzer water, grape juice soda, orange juice soda, etc.

Thanks all!

Since google sucks at newsgroup searches, I searched both Newsparrot and Giganews to find a pneumatics newsgroup.

I didn't find any.

The article suggested 150psi (and says 100psi is generated internally if you drop any common soda bottle); so, as an experiment, I donned welders garb (helmet, bib, and heavy gloves) and pressurized the 1 liter seltzer bottle filled with orange juice to 150psi ... and ... nothing happened.

Well, the orange juice was really fizzy when I removed the pressure and removed the cap; but what I mean is the bottle held 150 psi with aplomb!

I was too scared to go higher than 150 psi though (I had ammo of 800 psi of c02 available).

I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them to

200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the danger).

Anyway, it's amazing how well engineered a 10 cent throw-away soda bottle is!

(snip)

o

(snip)

Yes, there's no danger because, being incompressible, it does not store energy like a pressurized gas. The only stored energy with water pressurization is strain energy in the vessel, usually quite small. If the vessel ruptures the pressure instantly goes to zero and the water just runs out. Cheers, Roger

Ok, that's fine. Now, clean up the rest of the mess. The natural rubber hose is not suitable for dealing with freezing liquids. Put a piece in the fridge and watch it get stiff and brittle. I suggest you use clear vinyl or PVC "food grade" hoses, and nylon fittings.

You can measure the amount of dissolved CO2 with a pH meter or pH testing paper:

See chart on acidity.

Why so complexicated? Infusion is more like a slow leak into the liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for the gas to dissolve.

Light reading:

Have fun... (burp, belch, hiccup).

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Could use something like an aquarium aerator stone to dissolve the gas into water.

Correction!

The article suggested 50psi! (not 150psi).

aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail

Does that mean that, if I fill the juice bottle with juice, and then pressurize the head space to, say 200 psi (or whatever it takes to burst the bottle or cap), that the danger is less (than if I filled it purely with gas)?

The hose is beverage hose so it seems to take 150psi without problems. The bottle seems to take 150psi without problems and the tire valve doesn't seem to leak from the top so I wonder what happens if I fill it to bursting.

What can we predict will happen if I have, say, an inch or two of headspace and I pressurize the bottle to bursting (either glass or plastic)?

I suspect the glass would be too dangerous to even try (although glass would hold up to higher pressure ... maybe even the 800 psi of the carbon dioxide tank???).

I suspect the bottle top will blow off the threads before the bottle explodes or before the hose expands. The top has a brass tire valve in it so obviously you'd want it to be aimed the other way from your face.

Unanswered questions: Do you think the bottle will blow first or the cap off the threads? Do you think glass will withstand the entire 800 psi of the C02 tank?

I just re-read the original article and noticed that the author recommends agitation under pressure to help with dissolution. That strikes me as a bit dangerous as aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. Hmmm.... maybe a paint shaker?

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Just keep adding CO2 every several hours until you reach the desired carbonation level. After you pressurize the airspace, the CO2 will be gradually absorbed into the water, and the pressure in the airspace will drop until it reaches equilibrium. Or, you can attach the CO2, and shake the bottle to speed the absorbtion. Beginning with the water very cold will speed the process. As you shake the bottle, the CO2 quickly disolves into the water, and you will likely hear the CO2 flow out of the regulator as you do. Do this for a bit, then turn off the CO2 (leaving it attached) and continue shaking until the pressure at the guage quits going down. The guage will then show approximately the equilibrium pressure at the current temperature of the water in the bottle. You can repeat this until you reach the desired carbonation.

It's beginning to sound as dangerous as the new "Shake and Bake" method for making Meth in 2 liter bottled.

Jeff

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The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated.

As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring.

I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation.

I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems safe for most of us.

Let's be serious. Out of the entire google record, there's not one recorded case of a bottle exploding (that I can find) ... so is it that dangerous?

Maybe the danger you speak of is regarding the C02 tank itself (admittedly a bomb if the neck ever failed); however, lots of people have oxygen tanks in their homes which is far more dangerous than C02 (I would think), and they're not scared.

If anyone can find, on record, a case of a home carbonation system exploding the bottle (there's one case where the hose melted because it was too close to heat), then that would be interesting.

I was able to carbonate (explained in a thread where I corrected the spelling of "build" in the title).

Basically, there are two fundamental methods:

1. Tire valve with the stem intact ... or ...
2. Tire valve with the stem removed.

It takes only about a minute to fully carbonate a liter of liquid with the stem removed. The "flow" I had trouble understanding was a static "infusion" of carbon dioxide molecules into the fluid based on the partial pressure of C02 in the air space above the liquid and the partial pressure of C02 in the liquid; not a literal air-stream flow that was discernible.

Method 1, as you noted, will work; it just takes a LOT longer with static C02 pressure because it takes about 4 volumes of C02 (i.e., 4 liters) to fully carbonate 1 volume of liquid (i.e., 1 liter).

Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water? I'd bet in a blind taste test, your mouth could not tell the difference after the first sip, between that and your injected fizzy.

I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Anybody remember how they did 'needle beer' during prohibition?

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