Another reason ...

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The article doesn't seem stupid or self-serving, but it misses the fundamental issue -- how much does wind energy actually /cost/, over the lifetime of the generator? This seems to me much more important than how efficient the devices are.

You better believe that they've gone up ! Massively so, because we now seem to buy all of our gas from energy companies in France, who charge us what they like. They are, in turn, buying it from the Russians.

All of what you say about your friend in America, duly noted. However, all it says is that the panels that he put up, were basically all about winning grants, tax breaks, and subsidies, rather than about the green issue, and this seems to be the case for most of these alternative technologies. There was a big debate about all of this 'PV panels on the roof' stuff recently on another group, and some very well informed people on there did a good job of taking the figures apart. The bottom line seemed to be that this four year figure is the one that's always quoted, but due to such things as the efficiency of the panels dropping for various electrical and physical reasons, it is almost impossible to achieve the figures that the companies would try to have you believe. We are now getting a leaflet a week dropping through the door, trying to convince us to invest in this. Seems that many of the companies springing up to carry out this work, are basically untrained, and there is no requirement for them to be. There have apparently already been cases of panels being installed on roofs that are not strong enough to carry them ...

Arfa

I would put them offshore, and protect them with a military presence and gun batteries. After all, we had the technology to build forts out at sea in Victorian times, so I'm sure we could do it again for nuclear power plants. Use the water for direct cooling, as well ...

Arfa

Food prices go up and down, depending on fuel costs. We have idiots that want to more than double the current prices. That will more than triple food prices, and cost a lot of jobs.

I saw 'bone in' uncooked hams for $1.19 a pound yesterday at a Save-A-Lot store. A family of four caould have a nice Thanksgiving meal for $20 to $30 and have plenty of leftovers for snacks. The problem with a lot of people is that they won't look for good prices, or drive an extra couple miles to save money on food. I shop at six different supermarkets and at Sam's Club. I don't make a special trip to them when I can avoid it. I stop in when I have other business in that area. They are all concentrated in two areas, so I can shop more than one in a single trip. I am diabetic, and have trouble finding what I want, and can eat so I can'tt shop in one place.

Most people I know pick one store and buy everthing there, regardless of prices.

The difference in prices among stores -- for exactly the same product -- can be startling. In the Seattle area, Fred Meyer tends to have the lowest prices among the major chains, but (of course) Costco can be (and often is) even lower -- though you don't have the selection, of course.

I occasionally stop by the Oroweat "day-old" store and pay /half/ what I do at Costco. I rarely pay more than $1.20 for a loaf of rye bread, or $1 for a box of English muffins -- often less.

I remember some TV show where people were showing how they shopped. One woman put more than $100 of food in her cart -- then said she didn't have anything for that night's meal.

Most people have /no idea whatever/ how to make intelligent purchases.

Your whole argument is based upon the ability to travel to different stores and buy different but similar things.

For example, you mentioned buying day old bread. It's similar to fresh bread, but not the same. Or that brand X meat is the same as brand Y and so on.

If gas is cheap and you have plenty of time you can do it, but if you are busy, don't have a car, or can't afford the gasoline, you are stuck.

Geoff.

Yes, of course. Where I live, this is absolutely trivial.

Actually, it's identical. Most of the items in Oroweat (and similar) stores have been pulled shortly before their expiration date -- which is itself conservative. It's not stale or moldy. No one could tell the difference.

I didn't say that! I said identical items, and I meant it. You wouldn't believe some of the price differences.

Not necessarily. Most stores have weekly ads showing specials, and Websites listing prices. I live within easy walking distance of two major chains (Safeway and Albertsons -- there used to be a third, QFC), and Fred Meyer is a hop down the road.

In the US, most people living outside cities have access to multiple grocery stores at "reasonable" distances. (Within cities, you often have a similar choice in the "better" neighborhoods.) Furthermore, the money saved by making a single trip with stops at multiple stores outweighs the cost of gasoline several times over -- sometimes many times.

You read the ads, think about what you want to buy, and make a single trip to pick it all up. It's that simple.

For the past 50 years, the US has been becoming one huge "suburb". You're rarely more than a few miles from /anything/ you want to buy.

I could almost believe it, just thinking about hysteresis losses in transformers, leakage in HT lines, etc.

The last Alberson's in my area closed a couple years ago. It had the highest prices of any supermarket, so most of the customers lived within walking distance.

We have:

Aldi Publix Save-A-Lot Sweetbay Wal-mart Winn-Dixie

K-mart and Target have grocery sections, but the selection is limited. We also have a huge liquidator that buys tractor trailer loads of food and anything else you can imagine. At times they have full cases of food that just hit the expiration date for $1. A few months ago I bought five, four pound boxes of TUC peppered Crackers for $5. I gave one away, and only have one full box left. 12 bottles of lime juice for $1, and other deals show up, as well. The dates on the food is actually a 'best used by' date, not a date it becomes unsafe.

Both of the 'day old stores here are gone. One went too retail operation, the other closed when it was bought by a larger bakery. A lot of what they sold was overstock, and not day old. I know there is one about 15 miles from here, but that isn't worth the drive, unless I need a lot of bread. It is near the new VA clinic, though, and I am waiting to get on the transfer list.

I have days like that, because some stops are to restock the basics instead of buying things for that day, but it rarely ever passes $50. I only shop a few times a month for most things, as well. Canned foods are bought by the case, spices and some other items are restaurant sized containers Why pay $1.99 for 3.75 ounces of black pepper, when I can get 80 ounces for $18.88? That is 21.33 times the weight for 9.48 times he price. It also makes it easy not to run out in the middle of preparing a meal. :)

I also have the problem of not being hungry while shopping and not finding anything I want to eat that night, while shopping. Diabetes plays hell with your appetite, and the medicine to treat it is worse.

And I would have thought that you would have known me better than to disregard something that I have taken the trouble to say, as being nothing more than nonsense. No matter what you might think, the case for manmade global warming is by no means made, and there are many scientists with an alternative view. Some actually use real science, instead of media driven pseudo science, to investigate the possibility that the trends are actually the reverse of what the mm global warmingists would have us all believe.

Try looking at

or

Nobody disputes that we cannot continue using the fuels that we currently do, to generate electricity. However, we already have a perfectly adequate 'alternative' to fossil fuels in nuclear. All it needs is for people to lose their unfounded and hysterical fears of the technology, which are created in no small part by media hype, and a vociferous anti-nuclear brigade.

Arfa

QFC is Kroger's "high-end" store in the Seattle area. (Kroger's bought Fred Meyer a few years ago.) The QFC near me was rather small, so when the economy got tight, it wasn't surprising it shut down.

If any of your stores are owned by Kroger's, try the Kroger's brand raisins. Beat the heck out of Sunsweet -- taste just as good, and are softer.

That's why it so surprised me, as you're normally a thoughtful person.

Scientists are only slightly more rational than the average person. Like most humans, they tend to believe what they want to believe. However, as carbon dioxide and methane are greenhouse gases, it's hard to believe that pumping them into the atmosphere /doesn't/ have an effect. That is not, per se, pseudo science.

It's interesting to note that the (so-called) Little Ice Age ended around the time the industrial revolution got under way. Was this a coincidence, or cause and effect? It is possible that part, or all, of the warming we see is actually a reversal of the Little Ice Age.

The media didn't start the claims of manmade global warning -- they merely (tend to) follow the opinions of whoever has the microphone, so to speak.

I think the "vociferous anti-nuclear brigade" has a very strong case. Of course, the two major nuclear disasters were not caused by the technology, per se, but by the idiots running the plants. Nevertheless... Mr Murphy is still alive and kicking.

Do a search for "pebble bed reactor" and see what you think. It appears to be a complete solution to the problems of nuclear energy. So, naturally, no one is doing much about it.

It's not all media fueled hype. Some of it is very well deserved.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Simpsons where Mayor Quimby is showing off the new alert sign in front of the nuclear power plant. When it gets to stage 4 "Run for your lives" Homer remarks, "That'll never happen." When questioned by a co-worker if he felt that the site was safe Homer replied, "No, just that if the core melts, there won't be any electricity to run the sign."

The biggest hurdle to overcome with safe nuclear energy is the age old problem of "Who's guarding the guardians?"

If the debacle with British Petroleum and the government agencies that were supposed to over see what was being done is any indication, I'd rather not have to "trust" my government to make sure things are safe.

Jeff

As a more or less life-long Portlander, I was a bit saddened when Fred Meyer passed from family ownership to Kroger's. However, I still think they missed a good bet... they should have changed the name to Freddy Kroger's.. maybe even gotten Robert Englund to do their signage.. :)

Kroger has no stores in Florida that I know of. They attempted to open a couple about 15 years ago, but sold the new buildings before they ever opened.

I shopped at a Kroger's supermarket when I lived in Ohio for almost all my groceries.

Yep. Nuclear is also the answer to your aversion to CFL lighting.

Full spectrum lighting with emissions from RF to gamma rays. The only problem is clearing the room from the mushroom cloud every time you turn it on.

Ok, the lack of any additional references to this device strongly suggest that it's a hoax, but I couldn't resist mentioning it.

Incidentally, I invented the nuclear waste powered home water heater, which should also be a big hit after we run out of oil. What to do with reactor waste? Just take it home and use it to run your buried water heater.

Jeff (Sci-Fi) Liebermann

He could have worked in the butcher department...