Do you still use "RS232" or something else?

All of the above. I.e., I *assume* you don't want to have to sell him a "diagnostic tool/interface" but, rather, want him to be able to use "resources" that he already has and is already familiar with to interact with your device.

Yes, my question is meant to see how much *less* than a terminal you can get away with. E.g., you can configure a thermostat with a few buttons (even a fancy "programmable thermostat" with multiple zones, programs, etc.)

This is not true. E.g., look at HP's (laughable) "Secure Web Console" which implements a "secure" terminal emulator to a serial port (from the network).

It's just a "write" or, even a "GET".

With the presentation capabilities of a browser, you can approach data entry differently.

E.g., instead of typing in a date, the user can pick a month from a "year at a glance" calendar. That causes that month to be displayed (e.g., february.html) and he can now pick a *day*. All you have to do is watch to see which links get activated (which "files" get requested).

Or, use a "slider" to set a numeric value instead of typing in a value.

Or, a piece of Java that gets a value and does a *specific* "write" to the device (puts the value in a certain place in a certain form).

The advantage of Java is that it lets you "effectively" install a driver *without* Administrator privilege (because that "driver" runs in Java's sandbox and doesn't tinker with the rest of the host like a "real" driver would)

Again, I can't *tell* you what you SHOULD do. Rather, just offer (perhaps) unconventional approaches that can be bastardized to fit your needs.

Golly, I hadn't even noticed. Well, good riddance, and halleluja, brother.

The bloody thing still exists, though, but at least it's not occupying the space needed for an actual terminal program any more. People would now have to consciously go ahead and actually download the thing themselves before they get to "use" it.

You already have my favourite, Tera Term Pro, on your list. But you might want to add a link to the current version at . It has a large number of enhancements since the original 1999 version, including better ssh2 for those that want that (I prefer it to putty), more baud rates, automatic detection of valid comms ports (very handy for USB converters), improved macro language, etc.

Oliver Betz schrieb:

It depends - when talking about larger controllers (like ARMs, for example), USB generally does not really add cost. But with a small MCS51 or AVR (cost 1 Euro), RS-232 is definitely cheaper, in any concern (money, board space, power consumption, memory requirements, processing power).

Tilmann

I beg to differ.

The smallest USB AVR costs 1.5 Euro, 5mm x 5mm, 15mW (3V), 8K Flash,

What about the MC9S08JS16?

It costs 1 Euro for the 16 k flash version and can work up to 48 MHz clock. USB doesn't add to memory requirements, because it has extra RAM for the USB module. And you can implement e.g. a HID device in less than 8 k flash, which means you still have another 8 k for your application. It doesn't need much processing power, because the time consuming parts of USB are implemented in hardware.

Power consumtion is no problem, because you can add some diodes, e.g. powered from battery, if not connected to USB, and powered from USB port, if connected to an USB port. I don't know, if you need it, because USB enable current is 1.5 mA, but can be higher when transmitting data.

Board space is lower compared to standard RS232, because a standard RS232 connector is much bigger than a mini-USB connector, and you'll need additional voltage translators like MAX232, which costs nearly as much as the whole USB solution.

Yeah, I agree that it is not much of a terminal emulator. There used to be a commercial program with a similar name that was actually pretty good, but I think that was back in the days of Windows 3.1.

Still, there are any number of free or nearly free term emulators that are not just good, but very good. I have used several of them.

Rick

USB storage is a block device so you don't see file requests you would have to do reverse directory searching to find the file owning a block, and you would have take measures to stop the browser caching, and the OS will cache the files anyway (can't think of a way to stop that), and the OS cache may well read ahead into other files, and anti-virus scanners will probably read everything in a directory as soon as you touch it.

Being in a sandbox it won't have permission (without administrator privileges to give it) to write to any storage device.

I don't know this product, but I know that data from a USB mass storage device _gets_ cached. I'm afraid that your approach doesn't work. And if it worked, it would be _very_ complicated on the microcontroller side.

Maybe with JavaScript (which could be blocked because the USB storage is considered unsafe), not with plain HTML.

Harder for arbitrary numbers > 8 bit or strings.

Do you remember when Microsoft considered chm files from network shares harmful? I don't expect Java or JavaScript being available.

Oliver

The 9S08JS is a good example for "nearly free" USB in a tiny microcontroller - as long as you need a crystal, anyway. 9S08 runs fine from the RC oscillator, precise enough for UART communication (but nor for USB).

But even a crystal and two more uC pins usually don't cost more than the EIA232 level translator.

Oliver

Thanks for the offer, but as I wrote, I consider it a bad solution to incorporate a FT232 in the device.

I suggest our customer to use _one_ USB EIA-232 adapter for his computer, not for our devices.

We get such stuff very cheap from our German distributors (yes, FT232 based).

Oliver

Well, that is still EIA-232 for my part.

Oliver

I would resist as far as I can to include USB (even though I think of ARM as of a controller :-) )simply because it implies a third party approval. Technically for debugging it will not buy you much if anything - RS232 speeds and a terminal are plenty. I really see no reason why one would use USB unless doing work for MS. Where speed matters, we have ethernet - with all the mature and flexible internet protocols on top. If speed does not matter, RS232 is just fine.

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

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Might be your favourite, but not what I consider a lightweigt solution for the occasional user. Does it still install special fonts?

If it doesn't come with the OS, it has to be as simple as OCConsole, Termite etc., preferably just one executable. Run it, delete it (and maybe an INI file), no traces left.

There is already the link to the project page

Oliver

o a

cause it implies a third party

I don't know about the special fonts (never noticed if it needs them or not), but I agree that it is not the most lightweight solution - I dislike the extra couple of programs it installs by default. However, once it is in place, it is simple and fast to use, and has plenty of features for when you need them.

Certainly such programs have their place. For my use (and my customers' use), it is fine to leave TTP installed on the machine, and it therefore doesn't matter if it is a little bigger than necessary.

That link works, but is less clear than the one I gave. It ends up with the same program in both cases, but my link leads you quicker to information about the program rather than just the download link.

It's a useful list you've made, by the way. I'll give a few others there a test at some point.

I just checked my TeratermPro install directory.

Total size is about 5MB.

What do you consider lightweight ?

Were talking Windoze here, nothing in WXP in that small.

What I would like to see is a term program that displays hex values.

Thanks

hamilton

Current versions are about 10 MB.

It's not so much the size of the program that makes it "lightweight". It's the number of extra bits and pieces, and the number of changes it makes around your system. I don't know off-hand how much TTP writes to the registry, but by default it installs a couple of extra programs such as "collector". It's that sort of thing that means TTP is no longer "lightweight", as it used to be. I am not saying it is bloated, and I find it very useful - but it is just not as lightweight as it could be.

RealTerm is one such program that I have used, though there are probably many more. Generally if I need to view serial communication in hex, I need to do more than just view it - perhaps interpret the data, calculate CRCs, etc. So I often use Python and pyserial and write some suitable capture scripts if I need something more than I can get from TTP.

I saw my install directory was at 13MB, unitl I looked and saw the install file was in there at 5.3MB.

I will check again, but I thought TTP did not use registry entries !?!

I have not used Python, maybe its time I join the 21st century ;-)

Thanks

hamilton