A/D for end of charge detection for NIMHs & NICADs

As you are fond of saying, complete nonsense. I'm no scientist, but common sense dictates that if the underlying processes proposed in support of a theory are in question then the theory itself must also be in question. How else would one refute a theory if not by refuting it's proposed underlying processes?

As for your other unsubstantiated allegations, You would need to take that up with Dr Crick or Dr McLaughlin since Crick died 2004, but not with me.

Speaking of deluding the ignorant, I believe you have simply restated what I said with the added assumption that the formation of such complex molecules commonplace and predictable. This assumption is not as axiomatic as you would have one believe, but please don't take my word for it.

Dr. George Wald, Nobel Prize winner of Harvard University: "One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are - as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation." Scientific American, August, 1954.

How is that for scientific reasoning? He concedes that what you imply was a common and predictable process is indeed "impossible" yet still "believes" that it happened.

If you care to read about why it is impossible check out the article at

formatting link
and you'll find out just how difficult it is to get these complex molecules to form. It's a rather long article and written for HS and college students, but worth the time to read.

or for a more rigorous presentation

formatting link

I hope you don't seriously believe that Dr Crick had the sinister ulterior motive "to delude the ignorant" when he wrote his book.

These articles only consider the spontaneous creation of protein molecules and not an immensely more complex living cell, but Dr Walds comment was referring to a living cell.

Uh Oh, more "complete nonsense" If anyone really believes the nonsense that there is no debate on darwinism among legitimate researchers I suggest you google "evolution debate" and check out some of the about 411,000 hits generated, but be sure to take a look at this list

formatting link

Here's another quote probably taken out of context. :)

Dr Steven J Gould - Professor of Geology and Zoology at Harvard University "There have been more than 100 debates between evolutionist and creationists. We should stop debating these people(creationists) because we have lost all 100 of the debates."

An odd thing to say in any context given the "fact" that there is no debate on darwinism.

I do not claim anything, I simply restate what qualified scientist have said. Check some of those 411,000 google hits for more info.

Uh, the point was that he gave credit for that 1st living cell to God. C'mon now, pay attention. Btw means "by the way" and is generally used to inject a minor point of fact. I have to admit that I suspect you were aware of my point, ignored it, and concentrated on a point of trivia just for an opportunity to shoot the messenger. Just a suspicion mind you.

Interesting though, by your logic, since I studied physics in college then I would be qualified to formulate a new string theory. An obvious absurdity!

Oh dear, another declaration of "complete nonsense" with no evidence supporting it, so ok, explain this:

L. Harrison Matthews (F.R.S.) "The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory - is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation - both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof" - Introduction to The Origin of Species (London: J.M. Dent & Sons, Ltd., 1971)

and this

Evolutionist David Raup, Curator of Geology at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History said:- "The evidence we find in the geological record is not nearly as compatible with Darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be ....We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than in Darwin's time ... so Darwin's problem has not been alleviated". (Raup, Field museum of Natural History Bulletin).

and this

"With few exceptions, radically new kinds of organisms appear for the first time in the fossil record already fully evolved, with most of their characteristic features present". Dr T S Kemp, Curator of Zoological collections, Oxford University (Kemp, 1999. Fossils and evolution, p. 253).

and this

Steven Stanley, an affirmed evolutionist, was objective enough to point out:- "The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that a gradualistic model can be valid." Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process. San Francisco: W. M. Freeman & Co., 1979, p. 39.

and this

Sir Aurthur Keef - At one time the most renowned evolution scientist in Great Britain. Author of 20 or so books supporting evolution. "evolution is unproved and unprovable." " We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation and that is unthinkable."

I could go on, but I think these people have made the point.

Indeed a true statement, but alas, you missed the point yet again. You really need to pay attention. I did not say that the actual "evolution" should have taken place in the last 150yrs. What I did say was that no proof that such an evolutionary process has occurred in the past has been found in the 150 yrs since Darwin wrote the origins. This is evident from the previous series of statements by reputable scientists.

You said that the concept of species is "artificial and to some degree fluid" then give examples of speciation to support evolution.

You refute a concept then use that very concept to support your position. I'm not sure how that works.

I'll not pretend to be an expert on darwinism, or that I can properly analyze field research. I must leave that to qualified people. I simply observe what such people have to say and to some extent, how they say it. I then base my conclusions on what seems most credible.

There are numerous examples of dissenting views by reputable scientists, but for some reason these are never mentioned by the darwinists. One has to wonder why this is.

Some of these scientists have even had their views suppressed by peer reviewed publications(see excerpt toward the end of this post for an example). One has to wonder why this is.

You know, to tell you the truth, personally I couldn't care less about different varieties of fish or flowers that may or may not be different species. I want to see proof that I came from anything other than God. As I have already shown, even the most staunch supporters of darwinism have lamented that such proof does not exist. Even some of the circumstantial evidence has been shown to have been faked. I refer you to Speaking of "intellectually dishonest practices" toward the end of this post.

Wait a minute, I thought you said there was no debate. In any case Google doesn't care. If you search for "irreducible complexity" you'll get hits for both sides of the non existent debate.

Oops, you missed the point yet again, Go have a cup of coffee then read it again slowly. I did not say that I do not understand what "fit" means. What I understand or don't understand is irrelevant. I did say that blind natural selection cannot know what fits. Which is, by definition, absolutely true. I know what "fit" means in this context because I've played poker before and know the desired outcome. Again, I believe you understood my point, ignored it, and attempted to refute something I didn't say or even imply.

Do you realize that you tend to make harsh blanket statements with absolutely no proof presented in support of those statements? This is not an effective debating technique.

I have attempted to provide evidence in support of my position in the form of references to articles and books, and what reputable scientists are saying on the subject. You can accept or deny that evidence, but at least I presented it.

Btw, the theory is Intelligent design, not creationism.

Note: Btw is used here to inject a MINOR point of fact.

For a list of peer reviewed books and articles supporting the "so-called theory" of intelligent design go to the link below.

formatting link

Speaking of "intellectually dishonest practices".

Please read these articles. They are very revealing.

formatting link

and

formatting link

and

formatting link

and

formatting link

and

formatting link

and

Dr Ken Poppe a 30 yr veteran science teacher, was forced to transfer to a different school because he simply mentioned in an elective class the fact that the intelligent design theory existed. This may have simply been the principals fear of the ACLU rather than intellectual dishonesty.

and

Consider the following excerpt from an article by Dr Jonathan Wells

The pro-Darwin bias in biology journals effectively excludes an alternative scientific theory such as intelligent design. Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, pointed out in a 1996 book, Darwin?s Black Box, that some features of living things are "irreducibly complex"--that is, they function only when all of their parts are in place. Behe reasoned that such features could not have been assembled by "numerous, successive, slight modifications," as Darwin?s theory requires, since the intermediate steps would have been non-functional and thus could not have been favored by natural selection. According to Behe, irreducible complexity points to intelligent design, rather than Darwinian evolution.

Darwinian biologists have criticized Behe?s view in several peer-reviewed journals, including Nature, Trends in Ecology and Evolution and The Quarterly Review of Biology. Yet, peer-reviewed science journals have consistently refused to publish Behe?s responses to such criticisms. One journal editor, in refusing to publish one such response, cited a reviewer who wrote: "In this referee?s judgment, the manuscript of Michael Behe does not contribute anything useful to evolutionary science."

When Behe submitted an essay to another biology journal, the editor wrote back: "As you no doubt know, our journal has supported and demonstrated a strong evolutionary position from the very beginning, and believes that evolutionary explanations of all structures and phenomena of life are possible and inevitable. Hence a position such as yours, which opposes this view on other than scientific grounds, cannot be appropriate for our pages." Since Behe?s essay dealt with evidence for his position (the hallmark of scientific reasoning), the phrase "other than scientific grounds" simply reflects the fact that for this journal, "science" is equated with "evolution."

So the rule is this: A theory such as intelligent design, that fundamentally challenges Darwinian evolution, is not scientific so it can?t be published in peer-reviewed science journals; and we know it?s not scientific because it hasn?t been published in peer-reviewed science journals. Catch-23!

Jonathan Wells holds a Ph.D. in biology from the University of California, Berkeley, and has published articles in several peer-reviewed science journals. He is currently a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute in Seattle and the author of Icons of Evolution (2000)

In closing:

Evolution just didn't seem plausible to me, so I set out to see what I could learn about it since it wasn't even taught when I was in school. It turned out that there are quite a few reputable scientists who have the same doubts as I do. Wow, I didn't know that. Isn't the internet wonderful.

Some of those scientists attempts at publication have been suppressed or they have been intimidated into silence. This raised some red flags in my mind.

I also found out that evidence supporting evolution has been faked and even after discovery, was/is still in use in textbooks. Uh oh, more red flags.

I read irrational statements such the one made by Dr Wald and more red flags go up.

The ACLU is a staunch supporter of darwinism, maybe it's just their anti-religion bias showing through. In any case, more red flags! Ok, this is my world view showing, I admit it.

With so many red flags popping up, I have to think that there is something very very wrong here! What are these people so afraid of? Why do they go to such lengths to silence any opposition to their position? Why do they admit to the major problems with evolution yet still support it even to a dogmatic degree?

One has to wonder why this is.

I believe the reason is that darwinism is not a theory at all, but rather a dogma and some people will defend their beliefs to the bitter end using any means at their disposal. Creationism(not ID) on the other hand, is not and has never been touted as a scientific theory. Neither of these dogmas has been and probably never will be proved. The difference is that darwinists present their beliefs as scientific fact and creationists do not. Yes, it's a bit of a generalization, but for the most part a true statement. There are of course exceptions on both sides.

Mike

Prof David Albrooke - Univ of Australia evolution is "a time hononed tennant of faith."

Reply to
Mike
Loading thread data ...

What defines winning and losing? I cannot teach a pig to whistle, but is that my fault - or the pig's?

Reply to
Homer J Simpson

I am not familiar with this particular Gould quote, but the situation he refers to is familiar to those in the field. These "debates" are invariably hosted by creationists and held with overwhelmingly creationist audiences. The creationist debater usually has better oratory skills, probably from a preaching background. And he certainly knows how to play to his audience. He can pose "conundrums" for the scientist, which he knows can't be explained easily to an ignorant audience in the context of the debate format. The he whips out a disingenuous "aha! gotcha!" that the audience just loves.

Result: The scientist looks foolish in the eyes of the audience, which was the whole point of the "debate" in the first place. Science loses the "debate" in the sense that the creationist agenda has been furthered, and the audience has not been enlightened about science.

There may be no way to educate these people. And they certainly understand that education is their enemy, which is why they fight so hard to block science instruction in public schools. Things look pretty dark for science and reason these days...

Best regards,

Bob Masta dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom D A Q A R T A Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

formatting link
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator

Reply to
Bob Masta

Your ignorance is showing. Irreducible complexity has absolutely nothing to do with anyoones understanding of anything. Your ignorance makes your last statement somewhat less than credible.

Mike

"The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation...His religious feeling takes the form of rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals the intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection." Albert Einstein (theoretical physicist)

Reply to
Mike

Oh come on now, you'll have to do better than that! If you're going to spit out lies, you'll have to make them a little harder to debunk!

MRSA stands for methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus. It is a type of bacterium commonly found on the skin and/or in the noses of healthy people. Although it is usually harmless at these sites, it may occasionally get into the body (eg through breaks in the skin such as abrasions, cuts, wounds, surgical incisions or indwelling catheters) and cause infections. These infections may be mild (eg pimples or boils) or serious (eg infection of the bloodstream, bones or joints).

The treatment of infections due to Staphylococcus aureus was revolutionised in the 1940s by the introduction of the antibiotic penicillin.

Unfortunately, most strains of Staphylococcus aureus are now resistant to penicillin. This is because Staphylococcus aureus has 'learnt' to make a substance called ß-lactamase (pronounced beta-lactamase), that degrades penicillin, destroying its antibacterial activity.

Source:

formatting link

Probably one those right-wing creationist websites.

Mike

Regarding the complex and seemingly impossible equilibrium of nuclear reactions taking place in red giants, one of the 20th Centuries most recognized astrophysicists, Fred Hoyle, stated:

"A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

Reply to
Mike

I suppose that's why they have such a hard time keeping people awake during sermons and why everybody goes by those "religous channels" really fast when channel surfing.

Sources, excerpts, anything?

I've tried to find out where some of those debate were held and who the participants were, but with no luck. I could only find one for sure and that was on PBS Firing line. Hardly a creationist friendly venue.

If you would, Please provide the info to lend credence to your statement.

Kinda makes you wonder why many of the ivy league universities were founded by Christian organizations. Isn't it Harvard that has "The truth shall set you free" chiseled in stone somewhere on campus. For you in Rio Linde, that's a partial quote from Jesus Christ.

I would be curious to know of any lawsuit filed by a Christian organization that attempted to block science education in the public schools.

Yes, but as the old dogmatic darwinists die off things will get better.

Mike

One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are - as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation." Dr. George Wald, Nobel Prize winner of Harvard University Scientific American, August, 1954.

Reply to
Mike

I don't know. Too bad you can't ask Dr Gould since he's the one who says they were lost.

You simply lack patience. Wait till the pig "evolves" into little boy then teach him. :) C'mon, lighten up, that was joke.

Mike

Regarding the complex and seemingly impossible equilibrium of nuclear reactions taking place in red giants, one of the 20th Centuries most recognized astrophysicists, Fred Hoyle, stated:

"A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

Reply to
Mike

He said, When in reality, he wasn't able to provide a cogent response to any of it.

And exactly where did I quote the "Hebrew bible" as a source? I did not.

Mike

"As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" George Greenstein - Astrophysicist

Reply to
Mike

You claim that I provided lies to show the folly of darwinism, yet you provide no proof.

Btw, I know of no true "believer" who purports to uphold the Ten Commandments. We only wish that we could.

An outright lie. I have never been told any such thing. It's a good thing you don't have to be concerned with that pesky 9th commandment.

I suppose that's why I've spent so many hours trying to sift through all the garbage to try and come up with something reasonable?

They have. They learned that evolution is folly.

I don't even know about this guy and If I'm not mistaken I haven't used any of his writtings.

Yeah, this guy is a slacker! Only 2 PhDs

and this guy is a real slacker, only one PhD

And exactly what credentials do you hold that allow you to pass judgment on these accomplished men?

I note that you attack the messenger and not the facts. Seems to be your MO. The excerpt from his article that I presented is indeed factual. Those things did happen.

You should probably cry.

All that you and your ilk, who have responded, have been able to muster in response are personal attacks, enuendo, and outright lies. That's pretty sad considering you're debating a real lightwieght.

Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sir Julian Huxley - Humanist, atheist and science popularizer, Professor of Zoology, President of UNESCO 25 yrs ago in a radio interview "I suppose that the reason that we lept at the origin (of the species) was because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores."

Reply to
Mike

And how did it 'learn' this? A correspondence course? Or natural selection?

Reply to
Homer J Simpson

I sometimes wonder if there shouldn't be an s.e.b / s.e.d basic electronics fundamentals course you know !

Graham

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

Mike, it is interesting that most of your argument is "from authority" rather than from reason. This is a classic creationist stance, and I suspect it is part of the mindset that puts such heavy emphasis on quote mining. This all ties together with the creationist desire for "debates". Remember debate teams back in high school? The debate format is/was such that it was very difficult to introduce any sort of logical argument in the allotted time windows, so everyone just produced quotes from "experts" and the battle revolved around the credentials of the experts. It was really frustrating to watch or participate in, but that methodology is exactly what is involved in many jury trials. ("If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!")

But science (and reality) is not decided by simple majority vote. It's not even decided by simple majority vote of "experts". It is more like a consensus on the current state of knowlege at any moment. The problem here is that creationists don't like the consensus and apparently think that selectively quoting only those who share their views will somehow change the consensus.

There is a reason that there are virtually no competent biologists who are creationists, and that is because the evidence says otherwise. In science, anyone is free to advance any hypothesis, but if it is to be accepted there must be good evidence. That is the reason for the apparent "conspiracy" against creationists... they never support any hypotheses with evidence. Science journals do not publish papers with arguments from authority... science is strictly a "put up or shut up" venture.

I understand that not everyone can have the needed background to evaluate all the evidence and reach their own conclusions, and that it is necessary to look to the opinions of experts. But you are only fooling yourself if you go "shopping for experts" that match your preferred views. If you are going to approach this honestly, you have to look outside the creationist circles for information. You simply can't rely on these folks for the whole picture. I'll admit that getting the big picture is going to be hard to do if you don't understand biology. But even if you are reduced to merely accepting the words of experts, you can at least get the opinions of mainstream experts like the National Academy of Sciences and not the cherry-picked productions of creationists.

For a really good place to start, try the National Center for Science Education

formatting link

Best regards,

Bob Masta dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom D A Q A R T A Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

formatting link
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator

Reply to
Bob Masta

Phillip Johnson is the father of the Intelligent Design movement:

Best regards,

Bob Masta dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom D A Q A R T A Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

formatting link
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator

Reply to
Bob Masta

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.