Zeta flying capacitor

Aug 15, 2018 24 Replies

I want to add a Pb accumulator charging capability to a power path prioritizer. Since I need to have a high-side N-MOSFET driver anyway, the Zeta topology pops up rather naturally. The specs are: V_OUT=13.8V/4A, 200kHz, V_IN=9..20V. There will also be a current slope-limiting input choke (to buy some time for the overcurrent fuse to react), which adds a nice side-effect of smoothing the Zeta's input ripple. L2 is used for the same purpose, but on the accu side. It still has ~3uH@80A, which is incredibly good. The soft saturation property of MS-130060-2 is extremely useful. This way I can integrate three separate blocks (the prioritizer, the charger, the fuse) into a weird-looking 3-MOSFET Zeta. Replacing D1 with a 4th one would buy me synchronous rectification on the low side. It simulates flawlessly (attached below), but there is a practical question: what should the



40uF (or more) C3 be in practice, given the high reliability needs? The current changes from -7A to 11A, so a 20A continuous ripple rating @200kHz is the minimum. Would 8x22uF/35V 1206 X7R be OK, including all the C(U) fun?

Best regards, Piotr



Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE 240 80 240 16 WIRE 400 80 400 16 WIRE -128 128 -144 128 WIRE 16 128 -48 128 WIRE 112 128 96 128 WIRE 160 128 112 128 WIRE 320 128 320 16 WIRE 320 128 256 128 WIRE 384 128 320 128 WIRE 512 128 480 128 WIRE 528 128 512 128 WIRE 752 128 608 128 WIRE 800 128 752 128 WIRE 320 144 320 128 WIRE 800 144 800 128 WIRE -144 160 -144 128 WIRE 112 160 112 128 WIRE 752 160 752 128 WIRE 384 176 384 128 WIRE 416 176 384 176 WIRE 512 176 512 128 WIRE 512 176 480 176 WIRE 512 192 512 176 WIRE 112 240 112 224 WIRE 320 240 320 224 WIRE -144 256 -144 240 WIRE 752 256 752 224 WIRE 800 256 800 224 WIRE 512 272 512 256 WIRE 272 320 208 320 WIRE 208 352 208 320 WIRE 320 352 320 336 WIRE 208 448 208 432 FLAG -144 256 0 FLAG 752 256 0 FLAG 800 256 0 FLAG 112 240 0 FLAG 512 272 0 FLAG 320 352 0 FLAG 208 448 0 SYMBOL voltage -144 144 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 9 SYMBOL nmos 160 80 M90 WINDOW 3 -37 42 VLeft 2 SYMATTR Value BSB015N04NX3 SYMATTR InstName M1 SYMBOL res 112 112 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 1m SYMBOL voltage 224 16 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 99 41 VBottom 2 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 10 0 100n 100n 3u 5u) SYMBOL schottky 528 256 R180 WINDOW 0 24 64 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -33 -39 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value MBR745 SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL nmos 480 80 R90 WINDOW 3 -42 -127 VRight 2 WINDOW 0 -17 -31 Left 2 SYMATTR Value BSB015N04NX3 SYMATTR InstName M2 SYMBOL voltage 416 16 R90 WINDOW 0 -32 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V3 SYMATTR Value 0 SYMBOL ind2 336 240 R180 WINDOW 0 36 80 Left 2 WINDOW 3 36 40 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L1



SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL cap 736 160 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1



SYMBOL res 784 128 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 3 SYMBOL cap 96 160 R0 SYMATTR InstName C2



SYMBOL cap 480 160 R90 WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C3



SYMBOL ind2 624 144 M270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 4 56 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName L2



SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL ind -144 144 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName L3



SYMBOL nmos 272 240 R0 WINDOW 3 -37 42 VLeft 2 SYMATTR Value BSB015N04NX3 SYMATTR InstName M3 SYMBOL voltage 208 336 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V4 SYMATTR Value 10 TEXT 40 352 Left 2 !.tran 3m TEXT 40 376 Left 2 !K L1 L2 0.99


And, for the purpose of fringe electronics bragging, here is the monster choke:

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Its main purpose is to conduct huge DC currents, but it can jump to I/10@200kHz, too.

Best regards, Piotr

I'm not taking the time to load your schematic, etc., but I'd just like to say, that when made with coupled inductors, with their normal very tight coupling, the zeta capacitor can play a greatly reduced role.

Thanks, - Win

The simulaton shows that for K=1 the C3 current is in the form of narrow spikes, but even K=0.99 destroys this beautiful picture and C3 must have Rambo-style strength then.

Best regards, Piotr

0.99 isn't that tight--I've measured a toroid at 0.9986, and big-iron power transformers are even tighter.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Very comforting, Phil. OK, it's prototyping time...

Best regards, Piotr

Beefy! Downside is the leakage is massive at that frequency and impedance. :/

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

The main purpose is DC dI/dt limiting, so leakage is not a problem in this use case. It's optimized for DCR and still useful L(I) for large I. Adding the secondary winding in order to reconfigure it as a switcher is more a way to satisfy my curiosity than a real need. If the tests succeed, I'll end up with a compact charger, otherwise a classic two-inductor soultion will be used instead. I've never done a Zeta, so it's another reason to try it. I have some good experience with SEPIC, but at 1/6 the power.

Bert regards, Piotr

I've seen figures as low as 0.90 for commercial coupled inductors; whether they perform better than that, I don't know.

Toroids wound in sectors (one winding on each side), do k ~= 1 - 1/mu_r, so

0.98 is fairly reasonable for such a part. 0.9986 may be typical of bifilar or high mu (CMC?) types. (Note that, because a CMC's magnetizing inductance is so large, its leakage is still quite considerable. The actual leakage doesn't much depend on core material, it's almost always a matter of winding geometry.)

If "big iron power transformers" includes bank wound types (usually in smaller sizes, where the extra leakage allows "impedance protected" operation), those are very leaky for the same reason.

"Shell" type transformers (primary and secondary are full width, wound on top of each other), and toroids (same idea, but all around a toroid), generally have good to excellent characteristics.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

Do you need automotive level reliability, i.e., stacked capacitors in series to prevent crack short failures?

That'll increase stray inductance too, unfortunately, which may in turn require slower commutation time (more switching loss), or lower Fsw.

Some mfgs provide current ratings of their caps. It's simply thermal in nature, you can estimate it from ESR at frequency if you can get that.

Dielectric ceramic isn't as conductive as Al2O3, so expect lower power ratings than a resistor of the same size, say 0.1W for those caps.

Consider adding an R+C1 across the coupling cap, to dampen the leakage resonance mode. Use C1 = 3*C and R = sqrt(LL / C). An electrolytic or polymer is probably a fine selection here. It won't carry that much signal current, so it doesn't need to be as beefy.

Tim

-- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website:

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Ah, yep. Cool :)

This is the most powerful Cuk I've made,

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Nominal (-)18V 20A output, but that's not continuous duty as you can tell from the lack of capacitors crammed into the box. :-p (Also, that's a total

60A through the ground lead, at minimum input voltage and full output. It's only 10 AWG...)

The choke is "star quad" wound, extremely low leakage (5 or 10nH). The strays on the board dominate -- in particular, the TO-3PF schottky diode, hidden below the driver board.

Control is a hack of this,

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a discrete (opamps and gates level), average current mode controller. Native application is a 10W boost (sensing battery current, regulating output voltage and current). Doing Cuk with it turned out to be pretty reasonable.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

Why a Cuk? The load is a couple of LEDs, so the desire to have low output ripple level is obvious, but why did you care about input ripple too?

Very intriguing, but Google does not provide anything relevant. Could you please explain?

What f?

Best regards, Piotr

Gosh, that's an ugly schematic.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Nah, the module is general purpose, I actually made it to run cordless tools from a "universal" (12 to 24V) input.

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??

Twist four wires together, and assign opposite pairs the same polarity. The TL impedance is much lower than, say, two lone twisted pairs in parallel. Typical TP is around 100 ohms, so two in parallel is 50; quad is 30 or less (probably more like 20 ohms here, because of the thin enamel spacing the wires apart).

Um, I think that was 200kHz, and I forget what commutation rate, probably

30-60ns.

(The strays are still low enough not to need snubbing.)

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

Gosh that's an ugly post. You can trim quoted text, y'know?

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

Indeed, the idea was to have a back-to-back connected MOSFET pair and hack an SMPS around it. Beauty wasn't on the wish list. I hope the prototype will work better than the schematic looks like.

I'm still impressed by how well the Zeta topology matches the existing core overload protection circuitry. Making a charger out of it is mostly a matter of gate control patterns, at least at the simulation level. The inductor has been designed to fulfill a different set of requirements, so its imperfections (leakage, winding/core losses, etc.) can kill the whole idea. Will see.

Best regards, Piotr

OK, I thought it is a special way of making a winding, called that way by analogy, not a literal meaning related to preparing the magnet wires. :-)

Thanks!

Best regards, Piotr

It only takes seconds to clean up a schematic. Spend another minute to give it a title, author, and date.

I have almost 3000 .asc Spice files on my PC. Without titles and dates and comments, they would be mostly useless.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

The ones I've used are around 0.85 (in a 'flybuck' design).

At 200 kHz you can use high-mu material, which makes for excellent coupling.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net https://hobbs-eo.com

I'd go for film caps over ceramic or polymer.

piglet

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