Water for Gas conversion hoax/scam?

A friend just showed me an instruction package for a conversion kit to allow a car engine to run on hydrogen and oxygen extracted from water. He paid about $60 for the privilege of downloading and printing out over 100 pages of text and crude drawings and schematics. I looked through it, and it appears to be a scam, but I was unable to find any serious discussion on-line (nothing on snopes) to indicate that it cannot possibly work as it claims. My arguments are as follows:

  1. It should require at least as much energy to dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water as could be regained by combustion, so unless the gases are generated from the power grid and then used in the vehicle, the energy ultimately must come from the gasoline engine.

  1. The instructions call for a carburetor conversion kit. My last vehicle with a carburetor was a 1986 model. I do not see how the introduction of a hydrogen/oxygen mixture to the manifold can work with a fuel-injected system, especially when it is controlled by a computer as most vehicles have had since about 1995.

  2. The electronic circuits you are expected to build are designed with old technology parts, such as a 555 timer, 2N3055 transistor, CD4069, LM741, etc, and operate at frequencies from about 10 Hz to 350 kHz, with no instruction on PCB layout. These circuits are basically variable frequency PWM generators, with one set of pulses to electrodes in the water, and another set that go to a toroidal transformer.

  1. The toroidal transformer has a ferrite core and is to be hand wound with about 2000 turns of special teflon-coated magnet wire. Its purpose, as I understand it, is to somehow use magnetism to align the water molecules and dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen.

  2. There is also some reference to a "water capacitor", whatever that is, and somehow this 12 VDC circuit generates thousands of volts.

  1. The instructions are so extensive and complicated, and the illustrations are so poor, that I cannot imagine anyone actually going through all the steps and completing the project successfully. That is also a convenient way to make it always possible to tell someone they disn't follow the instructions exactly, if the thing doesn't work.

  2. As far as I can tell, there is no way to regulate the pressure of the H-O mixture (also known as Browns Gas), or to maintain a sufficient reserve for long-term power, and I cannot imagine a small generator like this being capable of providing enough gas continuously for automotive use. If it could, and the source of the power for hydrogen generation is the battery, I'm sure it would be overloaded or quickly discharged.

I thought I saw a post about this sometime back, but all I found was an "ad" in SEB.

My friend is going to try to get his money back through his credit card company. I doubt if he will have any success at that. He would probably have to first invest the time and materials to actually build the device, and then (if he could prove he did everything exactly right), maybe he could have a case. But he paid for an instruction manual, and he got one.

Paul

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen
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Who was it that said, "A fool and his money are soon parted" ?:-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

snip

Make a bit torrent of the files so people can download this scam free of charge.

martin

Reply to
Martin Griffith

Probably a new story, same as the old story:

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--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

mythbusters tried it:

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-Lasse

Reply to
langwadt

Its reassuring that this crook is conning the gullible instead of burgling me.

Reply to
ian field

Obama believes it will work ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
|                                                                |
|                        Vote Democrat...                        |
|                                                                |
|        $8.00/gallon Gasoline Doesn\'t Bother Me One Bit         |
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|  Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked!  |
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I believe that this sort of thing has been floating around for decades... it's the sort of "innovation" that used to be offered via small classified ads in the back of popular magazines. Possibly it still is.

Almost correct. It will require *more* energy to dissociate the gasses than you will reclaim by burning them. 100% efficiency is impossible.

If you try to use the vehicle's alternator to produce enough electricity to dissociate enough water to run the engine and drive the alternator... it just won't work.

Sounds like snake-oil to me.

The transformer is probably just intended to step up the voltage created by the PWM, in order to get enough voltage to dissociate the water. Ferrite-loading the transformer will increase the inductance, and reduce the number of turns of wire necessary. The reduction in wire length will come along with a reduction in resistive losses in the transformer, and make the whole system's efficiency a bit less bad.

In principle, you could use *extremely* pure water as the dielectric in a capacitor (between two plates). In practice, any real water you'd be likely to be able to use would have a high enough conductivity that it would render the cap rather useless.

Odds are, the guy selling the plans has never actually attempted to build it, either.

Yup.

He also paid for an instructive lesson in early detection of snake-oil, and I'd say that he probably got his money's worth.

--
Dave Platt                                    AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Reply to
Dave Platt

Ironically, it turns out that snake oil's good stuff. It's a potent source omega-3 fatty acids, and useful for many of the conditions it was touted for: heart disease, inflammation, arthritis, certain cancers...

Just make sure you're getting the real thing, not some shabby snake-oil substitute. ;-0

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

and you are proudly admiting to having friends this *dumb*?

Reply to
PeterD

That's so the seller always has an explanation for why it doesn't work: you didn't wind the transformer exactly right.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

The same person who said, "A fool and his money are soon partying."

Jim

Reply to
RST Engineering (jw)

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Hey, you're talkin' about my man, there. When he succeeds at uniting the country, we will have an Obama-nation!

Paul

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

So, snakes are not poisonous, after all! But some are venomous, and even they are delicious and nutritious.

Paul

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

I like your phrase ;-)

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

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| 1962 | | | | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave | | | | Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked! |

Reply to
Jim Thompson

He's actually a brilliant mechanical designer, as evidenced by the products he has made for diving (see

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so I was surprised that he actually seemed serious about this thing. But I think the dumbest thing he said was that he thinks it will be no problem getting his money back from his credit card company when he complains about it.

If he was so concerned about fuel economy, he should have bought a 40 MPG Saturn like I just did.

Paul

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

I worked on a 10kW power supply for a company in NZ that made hydrogen-oxygen welding kits, using a 3-phase coaxial transformer switching at 10kHz driving an electrolysis cell.

IIRC the output voltage was 32Vdc.

and nope, aint no way (at present) of doing this that isnt >5. There is also some reference to a "water capacitor", whatever that is,

AIUI there is quite a bit of work being undertaken (at places like MIT) to figure out ways of "cracking" water that are a lot less hungry than straight electrolysis. who knows, something useful might eventuate.

I like the compile-a-pdf and give it away approach.

Cheers Terry

Reply to
Terry Given

Those "Tuk-tuk" 3-wheel things they use in Asia do 100MPG.

Reply to
ian field

Clever engineers were able to design stuff like that 60 years ago:

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Even my old Citroen (pre-WWII engine design) yielded 50mpg. Maybe "modern" automotive designers should talk to the old hands before the last one has passed away. Seems academia ain't the place to learn this stuff.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

[snip]

Neither can survive a collision with a dog ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
|                                                                |
|        America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave         |
|                                                                |
|  Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked!  |
Reply to
Jim Thompson

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