Stability and Insanity

I've just spent over two weeks getting ready to do my next video. It was a combination of one of those vast underestimations one occasionally makes, combined with falling into a bit of an obsession.

I am, at this point, not only wondering if it was worth it, but questioning my sanity in carrying on even when the going went beyond tough to just plain crazy.

At any rate, a good video needs a visual aid, and I decided that my video needed to demonstrate stability with a pendulum. Moreover, it needed a pendulum that could be worked electronically. So, I've

  • Disassembled a hard drive for it's head positioner. This took a day or two.

  • Decided that wasn't good enough and wound my own custom coil (220 feet of #40 wire, woo hoo!). This took a false start (18 feet of #34 wire) and several days.

  • Mounted the coil into a custom pendulum, running on Real Ball Bearings. Several more days, and if you touch it wrong the Q goes down from about 80 to about 10, then you have to fiddle with it for several minutes so the moving parts don't rub.

  • Built an oscillator that uses the pendulum as its resonator (this is where stability comes in -- is an oscillator stable? How is it stable? What if it's showing chaotic behavior?). This was astonishingly frustrating, and didn't finally work until I carefully modeled the pendulum as a resonator AND took the coil inductance into account in the circuit. This part too about a week.

And for all that, I now have the time base for an exceptionally inaccurate electro-mechanical clock! Check out the picture. That's one cycle of the pendulum, running off of a "tick-toc" circuit that (A) minimizes the load on the pendulum (to give a high loaded Q, essential for wringing as much accuracy as possible out of a pendulum, never mind that it's made of wood, masking tape, and car parts that I picked up off the floor), and (B) has to be started by hand (I wanted to demonstrate a hard limit cycle).

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More on all of this when I post the video.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott
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For your next demo, use an electromagnet to lift a metal ball and hold it suspended. Sense the height with a light sensor. Use PID to achieve stability.

I saw an article that did this 30 or so years ago. They used a hollow steel ball with a map of the earth painted on. Can't remember the diameter of the ball, but maybe 1".

Reply to
John S

It was longer ago than that--iirc it was called "Li'l Atlas", and it could spin the ball as well as suspend it.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Found it. It was _fifty_ years ago:

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Cheers

Phil "Old magazines rule" Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

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The light sensor is not strictly necessary, but then you need something mor e complex than a PID.

Bye Jack

Reply to
jack4747

Oh, thanks, Phil. That makes me 20 years older than I thought I was :P

Reply to
John S

Yeah, things have progressed over the last 50 years. Thanks for the link. I would have loved to see the current change in the electromagnet as additional weights were added.

Reply to
John S

I've done that. You need a honkin' big electromagnet to make it work with a plain steel load.

The executive desk-toys with the floating globes use big (30mm dia x

10mm) rare-earth magnets, and float the ball a little bit below the neutral point. I believe that they use hall effect sensors to detect the magnet proximity.
--
Tim Wescott 
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design 
I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

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--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Try that again:

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Oops! Sorry! I didn't know you were already doing it.

Cheers.

Reply to
John S

Well, the project is on long-term hold, but I did get as far as getting one of those desk toys and starting to take it apart.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Would it be inappropriate to demonstrate PID? Just curious.

Reply to
John S

I suspect that it would be a good way to demonstrate a number of principles in control systems, PID controllers included.

A lot of people seem to separate "PID" from other controllers -- somewhere in this thread someone made a comment about "oh, that wouldn't work with a PID controller". Yet most advanced controllers really boil down to a PID controller with:

  • A different way of arriving at the gains; * various linear and nonlinear decorations; * and a fancy name.

But -- that's a rant for another day.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Usenet: bringing out the best in Humanity.

Reply to
Aleksandar Kuktin

Well, there are various lead-lag type tricks that require basically lowpass filtering the D term. PLLs and diffusion-dominated temperature controls don't like terms with huge noise gain.

When I was a post-doc, in about 1988, I did a motion controller for a piezo bimorph used in a scanning force microscope. It had a notch filter for the lowest resonance, two integrators (with lead-lag to make the loop stable) and two more poles to get rid of wideband crap that would excite the higher resonances. Worked great--when tweaked for best settling time, the loop BW was about 30% of the resonant frequency, vs.

3% for the previous version. (The resonance had a Q of about 30, so with just one integrator and no notch, the BW had to be backed off a really long way to prevent oscillation.)

Would you include that in "decorated PID"?

I generally do it that way, i.e. use frequency compensation ideas, concentrate on phase margin, and then watch out for the transient response, because when you do something fancy like the above, the settling behaviour is liable to be a bit strange. Of course when one of my loops misbehaves a bit during testing, no machinery is ruined and nobody gets hurt.

Windup and nonlinear slewing are sometimes issues too, of course.

Overall it seems like the distinction between control guys and other EEs is a bit like the difference between civil and mechanical--a lot of the same concepts but completely different emphasis. Is that fair?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

;)

There are better things in humanity than that. My wife's cooking, for one.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

A levitated ball is a nearly undamped, nonlinear second order system, which seems like a good test case. Tim's pendulum with a Q of 80 is good too, and more linear for small deflections.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

We seldom encounter chaotic behavior in electronic circuits... on purpose, I guess.

Superregenerative receivers are kind of chaotic, but mostly just noisy.

A laser driving some fiber with lots of reflections can be chaotic, but the only nonlinear element is the laser itself.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

But I bet you learned loads!

Btw - did you ever discover the reason for the discrepancy between theoretical and actual coil resistance for hard drive voice coils?

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

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