Old Telephone Ringers (1920s Subsets)

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So it was some sort of "Communist" co-op arrangement?

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It WAS a co-op. My grandfather helped string the wire and install the phones, and connect it all to Maxville (WV) exchange... in the 1920's ;-)

If you called any of those (mostly) of Scottish ancestry a communist, you'd be dead before you could blink, throttled by hand... this was right after the Russian revolution. Or as we southern boys would say... Roosky's ;-) ...Jim Thompson

:On Sep 24, 7:42 pm, Ross Herbert wrote: :> On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:27:09 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden :> wrote: :>

:> :On Sep 21, 6:02 pm, Ross Herbert wrote: :> :> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:31:23 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden :> wrote: :>

:> :>

:> :> :On Sep 15, 7:49 pm, Tim Williams wrote: :> :> :> On Sep 15, 8:35 pm, George Herold wrote: :> :> :>

:> :> :> > So Bill I really know nothing about old phones, but if you want to :> :> :> > find the resonant frequency, just hit the system with a delta :> :> :> > function. (ping the gonger?) and the frequency it rings at is the :> :> :> > resonant frequency. :> :> :>

:> :> :> Ah, but it's a nonlinear system -- nothing happens until it hits a :> :> :> bell, which takes some energy out, then it swings over and hits the :> :> :> other, etc.  A lot like putting a diode to +V and a diode to -V around :> :> :> a parallel resonant tank -- everything goes fine and dandy until it :> :> :> smacks into a rail. :> :> :>

:> :> :> I might suggest getting a 20Hz generator (motor plus another phone's :> :> :> dynamo??) and tweak it while running. :> :> :>

:> :> :> Tim :> :> : :> :> :Yes, you see the problem that nothing happens until it hits a bell :> :> :which knocks everything out of sync with erratic results, but maybe :> :> :that's the way it was designed? :> :> : :> :> :The ringer is just for display and will not be connected to the phone :> :> :line. I built a :> :> :driver circuit using a square wave at about 20Hz to simulate the :> :> :action. I wired the 2 coils in parallel to reduce the required :> :> :voltage, and bypassed the capacitor so the mechanism operates fairly :> :> :well at 20 volts AC. I tried varying the drive voltage and frequency :> :> :from about 10 volts to 24 volts without much change in action. It :> :> :seems to work the best at about 20 Hz and 20 VAC. :> :> : :> :> :I could remove the bells and tune the thing for maximum swing of the :> :> :gonger at lowest voltage, and possibly find a resonant point, but that :> :> :probably won't help when the bells are replaced and the whole :> :> :situation changes. :> :> : :> :> :-Bill :> :>

:> :> As KosephKK has said "you mucked the circuit". :> :>

:> :> the ringer is a magnetically polarised device and the windings are designed :> for :> :> series operation such that the polarity of each coil on successive half :> cycles :> :> aids one pole while repelling the other. You can't connect the windings in :> :> parallel and expect it to work. Also the voltage must be at least 40Vac for :> :> effective operation. Real worl exchange ringing machines for ringing bells :> like :> :> this were nominally 90Vac rms and the waveform was quite peaky. :> : :> :I don't see why it should matter if the windings are in series or :> :parallel, since the magnetic phasing can be changed by reversing the :> :connections to either winding. So, there are 2 possible ways to :> :connect the windings in parallel, and only one arrangement works. :> : :> :Yes, I imagine the voltage was fairly high using a cap in series.The :> :cap measures 1uF which has a reactance of about 8000 ohms at 20 Hz. :> :which drops most of the voltage. But the cap isn't needed since it :> :won't be connected to the phone line. The ringer operates somewhat :> :from a 5 volt peak sinewave from a function generator connected :> :directly to the parallel windings. But I still can't find a mechanical :> :resonant point. :> : :> :-Bill :>

:> Upon reflecting, you are correct that a parallel connection with correct phasing :> will do the same thing. However, the sensitivity of the bell will be markedly :> reduced since the current requirement to produce the same magnetic effect will :> increase. :>

: :Yes, the current increases by a factor of 4, and the resistance :decreases by a factor of 4, so the power also increases by a factor of :4 using the same voltage. I am using a 24 volt, 1 amp power supply :which can easily deliver the extra power, but I'm still not sure the :bell rings at optimum volume since I don't have an original working :unit to compare. It sounds slightly less than my regular phone, but :not much, so it may be working as well as it did 90 years ago, or :maybe a bit better. I just get lost when it comes to mechanical :problems. Anyway, I sent the unit to the owner for evaluation and am :awaiting his opinion. :

Makes sure that when you have adjusted the stroke of the armature that there is a gap of around 0.5mm between the hammer and the gong when holding the armature firmly against each pole piece. If you allow the hammer to remain in contact with the gong at maximum stroke the sound will not be as loud as it should be.

:Jim Thompson wrote: :> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:45:56 GMT, Ross Herbert :> wrote: :> :>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 10:31:35 -0700, Jim Thompson :>> wrote: :>>

:>>

:>> : :>> :Really old phone systems used "pattern" ringing, such as :>> :short-short-long, controlled via the crank. I can recall my :>> :grandmother announcing that's so-and-so's ring, then listening in ;-) :>> : :>> : ...Jim Thompson :>>

:>> This is known simply as a "magneto party line service". In some cases a magneto :>> party line could be single wire earth return up to 60 or more miles long. In :>> some cases the top wire of a long fence-line would be used (part private erected :>> line) but if it rained (not often out beyond the black stump) the wet wooden :>> posts would result in high leakage causing hum, and ringing got shunted quite :>> badly. :> :> Yep. Where my Grandparents Thompson lived, the "community" owned the :> phone system. :> :> ...Jim Thompson : :So it was some sort of "Communist" co-op arrangement?

Sort of like a little "big brother" arrangement where each party could "spy" on the other party's phone calls :-)

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Yes, the armature stroke has a gap adjustment, but it only effects one gap in the idle condition. I didn't see any adjustment for the gap on the other side, so the hammer just hits the bell on one side with no apparent gap adjustment. It may be possible to adjust the other gap by bending the hammer wire one way or the other, and then compensating with the gap on the other side, but it appeared a fairly long distance to adjust, so I just left it alone.

But looking at a more modern bell ringer from the 1970s or so, I was able to adjust both gaps by slightly bending a wire that hits a stop and also adjusting the distance between the bells so the hammer doesn't hit either bell in the idle state. It sounds pretty good with the hammer oscillating near dead center while the 2 bells ring. I think I have this one adjusted for max volume.

The modern ringer has 2 windings on a single coil, one measuring 1000 ohms and the other measuring 3000 ohms. I put the 2 windings in parallel with correct phase and the ringer operates well on 20VAC at

Anyway, the owner of the old ringer was happy with the results and thought it sounded original, even though there is no gap between the hammer and one of the bells. I think most of these ringers are not set up for optimum volume and several adjustments are critical to get the best results.

Thanks for your ideas,

-Bill

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:18:24 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden wrote:

:On Sep 27, 7:41 pm, Ross Herbert wrote: :> On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:41:59 -0700 (PDT), Bill Bowden :> wrote: :>

SNIP

:> Make sure that when you have adjusted the stroke of the armature that there is :> a gap of around 0.5mm between the hammer and the gong when holding the armature :> firmly against each pole piece. If you allow the hammer to remain in contact :> with the gong at maximum stroke the sound will not be as loud as it should be. : :Yes, the armature stroke has a gap adjustment, but it only effects one :gap in the idle condition. I didn't see any adjustment for the gap on :the other side, so the hammer just hits the bell on one side with no :apparent gap adjustment. It may be possible to adjust the other gap by :bending the hammer wire one way or the other, and then compensating :with the gap on the other side, but it appeared a fairly long distance :to adjust, so I just left it alone. : :But looking at a more modern bell ringer from the 1970s or so, I was :able to adjust both gaps by slightly bending a wire that hits a stop :and also adjusting the distance between the bells so the hammer :doesn't hit either bell in the idle state. It sounds pretty good with :the hammer oscillating near dead center while the 2 bells ring. I :think I have this one adjusted for max volume. : :The modern ringer has 2 windings on a single coil, one measuring 1000 :ohms and the other measuring 3000 ohms. I put the 2 windings in :parallel with correct phase and the ringer operates well on 20VAC at :20 Hertz. I have no idea why there are 2 windings of 3K and 1K. : :Anyway, the owner of the old ringer was happy with the results and :thought it sounded original, even though there is no gap between the :hammer and one of the bells. I think most of these ringers are not set :up for optimum volume and several adjustments are critical to get the :best results. : :Thanks for your ideas, : :-Bill

Since this particular bell is relatively old it is likely that somebody has tried to adjust it prior to yourself. I can assure you that it will be adjustable for equal travel both directions and that the gongs can be gapped.

All gongs have eccentric mounting allowing them to be rotated to achieve this adjustment. You must first back off both gongs as far as possible then adjust the armature travel equally in both directions then adjust the gongs by loosening and rotating to achieve the required gap before tightening. It is really easy if you approach it logically.

To the best of my knowledge, Bell has always used 20 hz ringing. They used other tricks for selective party line ringing.

The independents used three different schemes, and I can no longer recall all the names. One was 22hz/33/44/55; another 20/30/40/50/60 [But somehow, 60 hz was a problem...] and lastly 16.6/25/33.3, I think.

That said, I've never seen a retunable ringer. Ma's were all untuned. The few tuned one I saw had a cut in the frame/magnetic circuit and a spot-welded a piece around the cut.

But I'm talking 500 sets; ones as old as your may have been tunable.

BTW, the whole point with the cap/ringer was: it's hard to couple enough power down that up to resistive loop to move anything mechanical. (The

The ringer scheme worked around that. But I've only see a cogent explanation of how that works once, decades back. Wish I could find it.

...............................kfoot... sorry..

You mentioned adding an additional magnet. Has the original magnet weakened? Is it one of the big old U shaped magnets?

Some old phones used a 3 wire system instead of four. What was that difference about?