new PCB cleaner

We are just installing a new pcb washing machine. This is solvent based, for leakage-sensitive boards that we use rosin flux on.

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There are two tanks inside.

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The left one is filled with boiling solvent and some flux removers. The right tank is filled with pure, constantly-distilled solvent. The boiloff is continuously condensed by the refrigeration coils and dumped into the clean tank, which overflows into the dirty one.

There is a clean-solvent spray wand. A board is soaked in the boiling side for a minute maybe, then lifted and sprayed with the wand, the runoff ideally going into the dirty side.

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Some water condenses too, so there is a water removal filter system for the clean tank.

This is sometimes called a "vapor degreaser" but we don't use it in vapor-cleaning (condensation) mode. That works for chunks of metal, but the heat capacity of PCBs is to low.

The company wanted $1200 for the optional stainless pan on the floor, the leak catcher. Two doors down the block is a sheet metal shop that does restaurant gear and fireplaces and such, so they made us one for about $200.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin
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For home use and small boards,i took a standard one gallon (rectangular) can, formed 2 turns of copper tubing to fit at the inside at the top for water flow cooling and used a 100W fiberglass heater mat at the base for the heater. Made a very good vapor cleaner; PCBs would start "crying" at the moment of dunking and would continue to "cry" until lifted out.

I do not understand your comment about heat capacity of PCBs. Please explain.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Condensation heats the board, and stops when the board temperature approaches the vapor temperature. If the board is soaked in the boiling side, with the flux remover, it's already too hot.

Serious cleaning needs more fluid flow than condensation can provide. The spray blasts flux out from under parts. Condensation is too gentle.

The type of machines like the one we have can do vapor degreasing, but aren't used that way to clean boards.

We also have a water-wash machine, but I don't allow that for leakage-sensitive boards, or for some parts like relays.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

I generally put a slot under sensitive front end parts such as photodiodes and high-ohm feedback resistors. That helps a lot, both with flux removal and surface leakage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

On a high-density board with lots of tiny parts, we can't use slots. And conductive gunk can be trapped under resistors, caps, opamps, anything. Solder lifts parts up 10 mils or so, enough to wash under the part, but it needs aggressive flow.

We got one batch of boards, water-wash-process from a contract manufacturer, that had conductive gunk under parts. The Brat was home from college for the summer, working in manufacturing. We bought a WaterPic and some distilled water at the drug store and had her blast under every part on all the boards. She spent three days soaked, and she still resents it. Like a wet cat.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Sure, but for most of my stuff at least, some places in the circuit are orders of magnitude more sensitive than others. A small number of slots makes a huge difference.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Now, that's just impatience on your part. Consider the soxhlet...

which flushes its object with clean solvent, recycled... forever, if need be. Give it a week, it'll do an admirable job of cleaning anything even slightly soluble. For PCBs, an azeotrope (alcohol/water mixture) is usual.

I think the cooling loop at top indicates that Robert Baer was using the Soxhlet scheme, in some variant. Low-solubility of crud means that agitation or dirty solvent won't clean it, it requies clean solvent and time.

Reply to
whit3rd

On Sun, 24 Apr 2016 16:25:17 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd Gave us:

Ensolv

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Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

I think the current recipe is 30 seconds in the boiling tank and maybe a 15 second spray-down with clean solvent. The board is then slowly lifted out of the machine to best recover the expensive solvent.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Oh, I get it; you're using a hydrophobic solvent to clean off flux residue. That won't get boards clean of all the ionic contaminants from etching/plating/fingerprints, though: a slower cleaning, with a water-containing solvent, for those hydrophilic ionic contaminants, was what I had in mind.

Reply to
whit3rd

We use water-soluble flux and water wash for non-critical digital or low-impedance analog stuff. We use rosin flux and the solvent wash system for leakage-sensitive analog boards.

We would blackball any PCB house that sold us boards that came with ionic contaminants.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Reading between the lines, you are obviously familiar with effectively cleaned boards that were dipped in ionic crud, namely etchant and plating solutions.

But, you do not believe that you can clean off your own water-soluble flux to meet a similarly high standard? So, you switch to rosin flux and clean with more expensive solvent?

Reply to
whit3rd

Thanks.

Reply to
Robert Baer

All correct.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin
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Can you explain how vapor phase drying (as in making power transformers) and degreasing works? I've never come across a written explanation that makes any sense or explains the difference between dipping something in clean solvent and then shaking it off and drying it.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

I just took a small stuffed PC board and lowered it into the vapor zone a few inches above the boiling solvent. It dripped solvent for about 10 seconds, and then the condensation and the dripping stopped. Condensation heats the board, and once it gets hot the condensation stops.

After the condensation stopped, of course the board was still wet, but any crud left on the board at that point was there to stay. Slowly lifting it out of the machine, the solvent evaporated and presumably got trapped by the refrigeration coils for reuse. This stuff is about $100 per gallon, so we're careful to not waste it.

Something like a chunk of machined metal, with a higher heat capacity and smaller surface area, would drip longer than a PC board, but would also eventually heat up and stop dripping.

Which is why we dunk and then spray the boards. To remove the flux, not just redistribute it.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:nflqsr$cp$ snipped-for-privacy@reader1.panix.com...

Can you explain how vapor phase drying (as in making power transformers) and degreasing works? I've never come across a written explanation that makes any sense or explains the difference between dipping something in clean solvent and then shaking it off and drying it. ====================================================================

Not sure what vapor phase drying is, unless it is the final stages of vapor phase degreasing, but here goes:

If you heat a pot of clean solvent and then dip something in it for cleaning, that item gets pure solvent at the start but any residues that dissolve in the solvent leave it less than pristine so the first item isn't perfectly clean when you take it out, and the next item you want to clean will be even dirtier, so if you want clean solvent for the next item you have to throw out the first pot of solvent and start over, which uses up a bunch of solvent. If you use a tall pot with a cooling coil around the top and only put a small amount of solvent in the pot, when you heat it you will fill the pot up to the cooling coil with solvent vapor. Any vapor that reaches the cooling coil condenses and runs down the sides of the pot back to the liquid in the bottom. Basically this is a refluxing still. So long as any impurities in the liquid solvent have a vapor pressure much higher than the solvent vapor pressure, the vapor in the pot will be essentially pure solvent vapor no matter how much dirt has accumulated in the bottom of the pot. Now dip an item to be cleaned down into the vapor, but not all the way down into the liquid. Since the item is at room temperature (well below the boiling point of the solvent) vapor will begin condensing on the item, dissolving residues, and rinsing them into the liquid in the pot as the solvent drips off the item. However, the item is warmed up by the heat of condensation of the solvent and eventually reaches the same temperature as the solvent vapor. At that point condensation stops, along with the cleaning action. The item may appear moist or almost dry. Now when you lift it up to the top of the pot any liquid solvent on the item will evaporate as the item rises above the solvent vapor in the pot. The cooling coil is made tall enough so that this last flash of evaporation is captured and condensed back into the pot, to minimize any loss of solvent by "drag out". I assume that this last flash of evaporation is what you are referring to as vapor phase drying. The advantages of vapor phase degreasing is that each item gets very pure solvent and you aren't constantly throwing out solvent as it gets dirty, but the limitation is that once the item warms up you have to take it out and let it cool if you need more rinsing. Now, if you make the still a bit more complicated, by collecting the pure solvent that is condensing at the cooling coil and storing it in a second tank (returning any excess to the first pot so it doesn't run dry), this tank will always have very pure solvent so you can do lots of rinsing - this is the fancy system that John has. You can do vapor phase degreasing in the headspace of the first pot, and rinse with as much solvent as you have clean in the second tank by holding the part in the vapor of the first pot so all the liquid goes to the bottom of the first pot to be redistilled. In the old days chlorinated solvents like chloroform or trichloroethylene were used since they were great degreasers and had dense, heavy vapors that stayed down in the pot instead of filling the room. Not sure what is used now, but John said his was $100 per gallon so it must be good :-). Hope that wasn't too long and actually answered your question.

----- Regards, Carl Ijames

Reply to
Carl Ijames

Solder is so primitive, like CRTs and hard drives. There would be no flux if some standard formulation of conductive glue for assembly was available. I'm still waiting.......

Reply to
sean.c4s.vn

Of course your magic glue would have to be easily and selectively reversible. That's a pretty tall order.

Reply to
krw

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:45:33 -0400, krw Gave us:

You'll probably come up with some way to bellow that my response to this is "wrong". But you would be wrong... again.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

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