Interesting TIA design

I just finished up an interesting new (to me) TIA design for a Far Eastern customer. (There's no NDA, so I can talk about it.) It made a pretty interesting study.

It works up to about 30 uA photocurrent, but manages to be shot noise limited above 20 nA at 400 kHz and 100 nA at 1 MHz with 30 pF of photodiode capacitance, which is a factor of about 20 better than I originally expected. (A narrower current range device can be shot noise limited at 20 nA at 1 MHz.)

It uses a pair of parallelled BF862s in a bootstrapped bootstrap, connected to another pair in a cascoded common-source configuration. It avoids the 300 kelvin resistor noise by having a main signal path with no resistors! It uses capacitive feedback on the common-source stage and a differentiator going into the second stage--really an odd design, but it works great. (Bootstrapping the drains of the bootstrap FETs was good for 3 dB of SNR, interestingly.) LTSPICE said I could get a bit better performance by running the bootstrap a bit above IDSS, but I wasn't that brave.

It's for a relatively narrowband application, so in principle it could run at lower frequency, except that it has to work around fluorescent lights.

Electronic ballast fluorescents produce not only EMI but also strongly modulated light. With a 40 kHz switching frequency the harmonics go up to above 1 MHz. The phosphor isn't fast enough to do that, of course, but there are mercury and argon emission lines all over the place, and the plasma responds pretty fast, especially near the ends of the tube, so you have to pick an operating wavelength that avoids the emission lines. 940 nm is pretty good, fortunately--there are lines at 870 and

1010 nm that are inconveniently close, but relatively weak.

What I wound up with was a glorified AM radio--the above-mentioned TIA stage running into a 74VHC4053 analogue mux connected as a double balanced mixer, with a 1455 kHz LO and two 455 kHz ceramic IF filters, cascaded so as to increase the stopband attenuation.

Besides the TIA, the two most challenging parts were: (1) Achieving a 1% linearity spec over the full range, including the gain error from a 1x-128x programmable gain amp. Doing a built-up PGA with good accuracy at 1 MHz is surprisingly hard with jellybean parts, I discover--the on-resistance specs of muxes are the pits. (2N7002s to the rescue.)

(2) Getting rid of the DC and low frequency photocurrent without using resistors. I made a BJT current sink degenerated with 4 diodes in series with the emitter. Using N diodes reduces the transconductance by a factor of N+1, and increases the equivalent shot noise voltage by sqrt(N+1), so the resulting current sink runs 10*log(N+1) dB lower than full shot noise--7 dB for 4 diodes. So far, so vanilla. The problem was that the capacitance of the diodes dominated at low photocurrents, which essentially doubled the 1 MHz noise at 40 nA. I used BFT25A C-B junctions for the diodes, but that was the best I could get. I'd love to figure out how to make fast, wide range, sub-Poissonian current sources below 100 nA.

So I learned something about a corner of the design space that I'd never worked in before, which I thought was pretty neat.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs
Loading thread data ...

H?

(There's no NDA, so I can talk about it.) It made a

There's no brick wall at Idss. We run phemts enhanced all the time. Of course, you can't enhance a jfet much before the gate starts conducting, but you can get mesfets up about 50% and some phemts to twice Idss. I seem to have noticed a hyper-enhancement in some phemts at gate conduction, as if they are going bipolar or something, but I haven't investigated.

I hope they keep making BF862's. There's nothing else like them. Their transfer curve is pretty radical for a jfet, so they'd enhance pretty well; double Idss at roughly 1 nA gate current, something like that.

I noticed that in my spectroscopy project, huge amounts of 40 KHz when things were unshielded. That's smack in my range of interest.

I'm working on a VME digitizer module with ranges from +-10 mV to +-40 volts and > 10 volts of common-mode. I'm having to make my own pga out of parts, which is a huge nuisance. It's a classic 3-opamp diffamp with analog switches selecting the first-stage feedback from a balanced resistor string in 5 ranges... what a pain to calculate! The third "opamp" is an INA157. 16 channels, ADC per, and two trimpots per channel to fine-tune the cmrr.

BFT25's make awesome diodes.

Since metal film resistors have low shot noise, why can't you just use one of them with a fairly high voltage, or maybe cascode?

It's always fun to do something that's orders of magnitude better.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

As John said, be brazen there, go for it. Just like we used to run power amp tubs with plenty of control grid current in the old days. I've never made a grid glow but I did run plates well past cherry-red.

If you do a low-volume (meaning non-consumer) design check out canned PGAs. One of my favorites is the AD603. They raised the price a couple of bucks over the years but it is a great chip.

Another option is to get a chip with at least two uncommitted N-channcels on there, such as the CD4007 (cheap). Unbuffered logic can work as well, even cheaper. Now servo them by running one of them in a current source with opamp feedback. So your DAC commands a voltage and this sets the exact Rdson because it fudges the gate until that condition is met. The other FET that is part of your RF divider will follow, as long as this is monolithic and not a multi-chip part. But even the Rohm multi-chips are pretty good because the devices usually come off the same wafer. No guarantees with multi-chip, of course.

No chance to chop DC and LF the old-fashioned way, with inductors and capacitors?

Always nice to enter a new field. I just entered that of injectors and high pressures. It does command some respect, if something flies off in a 4500 psi situation things can get ugly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Pinhole leaks, like from bad welds or defective hoses, can make invisible fluid jets that cut like a sword, or inject hydraulic fluid like a hypodermic. Bad stuff.

Guys in ships, looking for steam leaks, would probe around carefully with a broomstick. A leak would slice the end off.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Nope, further west.

Might be worth a try, then. This gizmo is going to be prototyped by someone else 7000 miles away, so I'm being reasonably conservative.

They're really truly horrible, and all to save one capacitor. See for example

formatting link
.

Isn't it a nuisance? All those nice analogue switch parts that turn out to be 450 ohm Rs and 5 pF Cout. Irritating. There are a few 10 MHz MDACs, but the feedthrough at low codes is still pretty bad, though nowhere near as bad as the 1 MHz variety. Of course that's a bit less of a worry when they're used as the bottom resistor of the voltage divider.

The problem is the Johnson noise of the resistor--you have to drop at least 50 mV for the noise to be dominated by the photocurrent shot noise (250 mV is better). If the output is off the peg at 10 uA (R < 1 M, say), it's way over the shot noise at 10 nA, unless it's range switched, and the range switch would have more capacitance than the BFT25As. The basic problem is that the impedance at the emitter is 2.5 M at 10 nA, so getting 1 MHz bandwidth requires the total capacitance there to be something like 0.06 pF at most--very hard to do in a built-up circuit.

I thought about using a current splitter at the sink output, so that the actual sink transistor could run at higher current, but doing the splitting introduces essentially full shot noise by itself, which just pushes the problem off one level. [It's an interesting fact that a BJT diff pair whose emitter current has full shot noise produces exactly full shot noise from each collector, regardless of DeltaV_BE (in the infinite beta limit, anyway)].

You can't run photodiodes in series usually, but I wonder if there isn't some cute feedback trick that would allow that. Hmm. Next hill to climb.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

"When men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri."

Nice part. It won't make the 1% accuracy spec, though.

That is a truly gnarly idea. One for the tricks file.

Unfortunately not at these impedance levels. I'd need a 10 H inductor.

My son has a 4500 PSI carbon fibre air tank for his paintball gun. I explained the importance of keeping it in one piece, but I'm not sure I made an impression. Cutting a broomstick would do it.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Yeah, got a whole draw full of those FETS, nice components to have about.

I would think you being critical of noise, wouldn't using diodes in such a manner introduce some Johnson noise ? Just curious, maybe it don't have any bases here.

Reply to
Jamie

At any given current, diode degeneration is quite a bit noisier than resistor degeneration with the same voltage drop. The kicker is that if you want it to work over a wide current range, diodes are better than shot noise everyplace and a resistor isn't.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Really bad indeed. Someone once told me a story about a farmer putting his hand on a oil leak. The oil came out of his elbow. The farmer lost his arm and his farm.

A few years ago I sollicited for a job at a company that does airplane simulators and so on. Huge amounts of hydraulics. Hoses just running on the floor, no shielding whatsover. Way too dangerous. I declined the job for that and other reasons.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
                     "If it doesn\'t fit, use a bigger hammer!"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to
Nico Coesel

[...]

Well, you need to linearize it a bit or servo it with an out-of-band pilot tone. But for a mass product it ain't the ticket, demasiados Dolares.

You can also use this trick with RF dual N-channels or fast arrays for super-fine delay tuning. First time I did that it was met with some disgust in the design review but worked like a champ. It made a TMS320 almost unemployed and obsoleted some expensive and terribly noisy digital delay lines. Long story short they could have never made it work reliably with those delay lines.

Jim would build you a gyrator on silicon :-)

Be careful. A woman from our village was killed by a paintball tank that flew off. Hit her in the head, she slumped into the arms of her husband and was dead within seconds.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

[...]

That's why I never understand how people can operate a wood splitter without eye protection. They don't realize what's going on inside those hoses.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

This is a lab mockup for something that might become a mass-market product. I don't know exactly what it's for. I was trying not to be too curious, but it might be for something like a Wii--no data transmission, but a fairly tight linearity spec. I built it with one kind of op amp etc. to make life easier for the folks prototyping it, because they won't want to fly me across the Pacific to help.

The linearity error of the AD503 is a nice Chebyshevish thing with about

10 ripples, so linearizing it would really need that pilot tone. Detecting the pilot tone would need the back end of another AM radio, which would be a bit more complicated than I'd really like...that linearity spec again. Linear, wide range amplitude detectors are surprisingly hard to make when you really want 1% accuracy right down into the mud. (You might well have better tricks for that than I do, of course.)

I'd probably try to avoid that problem by attenuating the pilot tone at the input of the amp, using something predictable like a BJT diff pair or one of your 4007/op amp gizmos, and servoing the gain to bring the pilot tone to a constant amplitude at the output. That way the amplitude detector would run at almost the same level at all times.

The spec required binary weighted gains of 1 to 128, so I used a 3-> analog mux with the common terminal grounded, and just dorked the resistor values to take account of the on-resistance. It was sort of cute, using one mux to control the gain of two amplifier stages.

The first stage had to run at lower impedance to reduce the noise, so the Ron of the mux was too high. I used the first 3 mux outputs digitally to drive three 2N7002s with their gates pulled high via 100k resistors. A couple of Schottky diodes turned the 1-of-N mux output into a 3-bit thermometer code, so that output A0 turned off all three FETs, A1 turned off #2 and #3, and A2 just turned off #3. If the gain setting was 2**3 through 2**7, all three FETs were turned on, so that the first stage ran at full gain and outputs A3-A7 changed the gain of the second stage the usual way.

A sub-Poissonian gyrator would be a thing of beauty. I'm not holding my breath.

Brr.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

If it's in Korea your wife might ban you from the bedroom after the trip. When I came back I reeked of garlic so badly that my wife complained even though she really likes garlic. If it's Japan she might complain as well because guys like you and me would never be able to resist buying tons of parts in Akihabara, filling up the basement.

The radio could be a cheap little consumer chip. I've used RSSI outputs for that kind of stuff. But you'd have to scour the market to see what's going to stick around for enough years.

There is yet another esoteric method of variable RF attenuation: Double-balanced mixers or DBM. Feed DC into the IF port, use LO as input and RF as output. But it could be too expensive because DBMs are all well over a buck. I believe Mini-Circuits manufactures special ones for attenuator purposes now, no idea what they cost though.

[...]
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

AD has come out with some really nice successive detection log amps lately--65 dB range with better than +-1 dB log conformity. Back in the day I'd use something like a MC3362 FM IF strip, but those are long gone. About the only jellybean left that I know of is the SA605/615, and those have gone up in price by a lot. Those also have two IF stages, and you have to get the interstage attenuation just right for the RSSI curve to come out straight, with no cliffs or plateaus.

Several dollars in onesies, dunno in thousands. I love Mini-Circuits stuff--been using them since 1981 or so. Their high-output phase detector parts (RPD-1 in them days) are a good 10 dB better than ordinary DBMs for PLL use. They really saved my tuchis in my first engineering job, and I have a whole Vidmar drawer full of MCL stuff in my basement. Good medicine.

Problem with DBMs as attenuators is linearity. You can linearize a diff pair with a couple of auxiliary diode-connected transistors (a la LM13700 input structure). Of course a pilot tone doesn't have much to intermodulate with until it gets into the signal path, so that would work fine here too. (I was thinking more of something like a BCV61C dual BJT.)

We need a white board and a keg to do this really right, but it's fun even at a distance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

[...]

Yeah, they priced those right out of the market. Beats me why. There are always chips like the TDA7210 but who knows when the last order bell ringeth.

Another option that won't go away any time soon is WWVB receivers chips. Many have a peak output which can be used to extract the pilot tone level. It's really meant to set the AGC time constant but there ain't no law against other uses. This one is IMHO too expensive and just meant as an example because it has a little more meat in the datasheet:

formatting link

Possibly the CR output of this one works:

formatting link

The Asian ones often come with a very skimpy datasheet so essentially you'd have to buy a few and try it out. Since your client is in Asia they should be able to obtain them for you. While they were made to work on 60kHz or 77.5kHz that doesn't mean they won't work at a few hundred kHz. It's just that they are sold for "atomic clocks". Meaning Walmart pricing :-)

Also, you don't need crystal filtering for your purpose if the area around the pilot is quiet enough. Later when such a scheme works you can typicaly buy the bare bones bond versions that reside under a tar blob.

Same here :-)

You'd have to set the pilot where there is the least in intermodulation. That is where my old millimeter-grid pad usually comes out.

Maybe a keg of Yuengling or some of the other good stuff you guys have over on the east coast.

I really, really miss my white board. Even just for myself. No space for it in this office and in the garage I'd only have maybe 2-3 months out of a year. All other times you'd either get heat stroke or freeze.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Interesting, thanks. I hadn't thought of those.

"Chip in crud" construction. Cheap, works, but *blech*. Not to bite the hand that feeds, you understand....

I just got a career's worth of Clearprint vellum on eBay. Much nicer than my old stuff--with that and an electric eraser, my schematics look like I never make mistakes. ;)

Captain Lawrence Liquid Gold is the current local microbrew favourite. The Captain's is about 3 miles from my house. And of course everyone needs a kegerator for the lab. ;)

I'm thinking of getting one and mounting it on hinges across my bookshelf, so that it opens like a cupboard door. It would have to be reasonably lightweight, though.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

[snip]

Excellent idea. I had a white-board at the old house, in fact I had two. Here with (artistic architecture ;-) 6 wall faces in the office, no large-enough wall area left for a white board. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
              With Half My Brain Tied Behind My Back
              Still More Clever Than Mr.Prissy Pants
Reply to
Jim Thompson

A good whiteboard can add 10 points to one's IQ. I have one next to my workbench, so I can make measurements, take data, edit schematics, and make notes and then photograph the board, the test setup, and waveforms.

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/DSC01371.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/99S260A.JPG

We assign interesting prototypes and breadboards a 99-series drawing number and informally release the pics and whatever to a server, where the data is available to everyone and officially backed up. Beats losing stuff or hiding it in someone's notebook.

I also draw block diagrams and schematics on a whiteboard, and include photos of them in proposals. Customers don't seem to mind.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Maybe find some sliding closet door hardware, so you can just slide them back and forth. I have three bookcases in my office here that would be ideal with that sort of arrangement. it would even hide the mess of the bookcases behind them... ;-)

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

Good idea! ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.