Filament resistance oddity

Jan 19, 2016 16 Replies

Maybe a bit OT, but very strange.



On triggering, the PIR security lamp lit up and immediately went out. I assumed its R7 linear halogen bulb (230v 120W) had blown. I opened the lamp to replace the bulb, but it looked ok. As far as I could tell, the filament was exactly the same as the replacement bulb I was just about to put in. I replaced it anyway as it was 3 years old. The new bulb came on normally when I restored the power.



On examination the old bulb looked fine, but I thought I'd check it anyway with an old Avo Multiminor I had handy. Instead of being open circuit, it had a resistance of around 300K. I checked another new spare bulb, and that was around 50 ohms.



Not trusting the battery in the Avo, I checked the resistance with an electronic multimeter (I confirmed that was reading ok first with a 560k resistor). The first reading on the bulb was around 9M, but it wasn't steady; it increased every time the meter read. Over about 30 seconds it increased by 100k or so every reading. I removed the leads and reapplied them - not realising I had reversed them. I could not believe my eyes - the meter read -400k!!! Yes, "negative" 400k. And, like the first reading, it was not steady, this time decreasing about 10k every reading. When it got to zero, it slowly continued but this time showed "positive" ohms. Note these readings were very variable - perhaps depending on how hard I pressed the probe points on the bulb connectors. One way they could start between 6 and 10M, the other way between -400 and -180k, but they were consistent in increasing or decreasing over time. Repeating everything with the Avo just showed an open circuit either way round. For info, the multimeter applies 0.3v to measure resistance.



Any idea what is going on? Is it possible that some odd sort of thermocouple was created between the tungsten and filament support when the bulb blew?


Jeff

Hmm sounds like some weird capacitance effect... but I don't know where they hide the capacitance in a light bulb. :^)

George H.

Possibly the bulb cracked, the filament opened, and some moisture got into the gap and made a battery. Something like that.

Measure the terminal voltage.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics

Sounds like you were measuring a copper oxide rectifying junction.

NT

My guess would be a crack defect that now has a layer of semiconducting oxide/halide in it making a small capacitor. Hence it stored charge giving silly answers on a DC resistance measurement range.

An AC impedance tester might give a more informative answer but my guess would be 10M in series with 2pF and parallel with about the same.

Regards, Martin Brown

Rectifying ambient RF? That's possible.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics

If you reverse polarity with the leads, did the advancing negative resistance reading change?

My guess is that it stopped being a bulb and started being some sort of weird oxide-oriented semiconductor.

Do you have access to a TDR? Then again, that may just add to the confusion.

Les Cargill

sounds like your lamp has turned into a capacitor!

\_(?)_

Hmmm. Broken bulb, sweaty hands and multimeter leads in poor condition.

Jeroen Belleman

I once saw a fried component do just this.

A triac? Don't remember. Something with high-amps damage.

Something would have to be storing energy. It acts as if a 10uF capacitor had been created. That, or a battery with solid electrolyte (which do exist, experimental batteries with dry "solid acid" proton-conductors.)

If the crimps between the iron wires and the tungsten filament were bad, it could create arcing and "soot" from condensed metal. Metal aerogel network condensed out of plasma. That has enormous surface area.

Don't throw it away. It might be an example of future ultracapacitor technology not yet discovered.

Well, the multimeter can measure capacitance. When I tried it, the bulb had a capacitance of 130pF. I'll leave it to the experts here, but would that capacitance coupled with the input of the resistance measurement circuit account for the varying readings over time (the voltage measurement circuit has an input impedance of 10M, and the meter makes 3 readings a second)?

Jeff

It's more likely electrochemical, or just possibly RF rectification.

Just barely possible photoelectric, but that's easily tested.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics

See my reply to George Herold.

Jeff

The time constant calculates to 1.3 milliseconds. If the storage were capacitive, the DVM would discharge it basically instantly.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Yup, I just measured how much current my DMM spits out in (high) resistance mode. ~0.4 uA. 100 pF would charge up to a volt in... 0.25 milli seconds.

George H.

OK. Thanks to you and John for doing the calculation. I guess that it's not just a capacitance effect going on.

Jeff

Halogen lamps have aluminum or stainless steel connectors to be heat resistant. When you turn on bulb, power is supposed to arc through the oxide layer and create a little weld. Usually it works fine. Sometimes thermal stress keeps breaking the weld until you reseat the lamp.

You have to press REALLY HARD to measure continuity with a multimeter. That 0.3V and soft brass tip won't get through the oxide layer. I suspect that you're misinterpreting galvanic action as weird resistances.

I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or google because they host Usenet flooders.

Join the Discussion

Have something to add? Share your thoughts — no account required.

Didn't find your answer?

Ask the community — no account required