D@mn ground issues... again...

A proto PCB arrived earlier this week. This is the 2nd generation board for the High Level electronics to measure noise. This instrument is for teaching physics students about noise and is modular. The students must make connections between the modules to make it all work. Something like this.

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It has two switch selectable SV filter sections (10, 30... 3k and

300, 1k,...100k Hz) A gain section, Gain of 10 to 10^4 with switch selectable fine control. And a multiplier section. (The first generation board had some conceptual errors that lead to a design with gain peaking at the highest gain settings.)

I populated the gain section and it looked great. There was no gain peaking and at the highest gain (10^4) the 3dB point was at about

1.5MHz. I should mention here that the output from the final opamp is coupled to the output BNC connector with coax. With bare wire capacitive coupling from the output to input leads to gain peaking. The output BNC is also isolated from the front panel, with the return currents flowing back along the outer braid of the coax, and grounded back at the output opamp. If the output is not isolated there is again gain peaking, due, I assume, to the return currents flowing back along the shield and making the input and output connectors have slightly different voltages. (The only ground connection between the shield and pcb is made at the input to the gain stage.)

So far, so good. I then powered up the filter section and plugged it into the gain stage. Crap!!! Gain peaking at the highest gains. And if I run the High Pass output from the filter into the gain stage it breaks into oscillations. (Gain peaking is at about 1.5MHz as you might expect and the oscillation frequency is 1MHz.)

I've spent the past few days banging my head against this PCB. The filters and gain section were made with a common ground plane. (The multiplier section aready has a separate ground plane and power filter.) I dremeled a slot between the planes and ran wires back to the power supply ground input connection. (No real change.) I won't bore you with the rest of the gory details, except to say that I did learn that capacitive loading of the output made matters worse. This was not capacitive loading of the final opamp. If I grounded the input of the gain stage or drove it from some external generator there was no gain peaking when I added more capacitance to the output. I was adding 220 pF to the already existing 3 foot coax cable running to the scope

Today I powered up the filter section from a pair of 9V batteries. When I used the shield as the ground for the filter section every thing was great. No gain peaking. When I used the power supply ground from the gain stage as ground it was the same old oscillating story.

So I then built this configuration

+-------+ |Shield (V+)----R1R1---+---+ Vin | | | | | | C |filter | | C | | | +---+ GND---+------+ | | | +-------+

Where R1 was 100 ohms and C was a parallel combination of 47uF tant,

1uF ceramic and 0,1uF ceramic.

This worked fine, but I'm not sure I like the return current from the filter section flowing through the shield. (And then back through the gain stage.)

So then I made this,

+-------+ |Shield (V+)----R1R1---+---+ Vin | | | | | | C |filter | | C | | | PGND---LLL----+---+ GND---+-R2R2-+ | +-C2C2-+ +-------+ |

Where R1 and C are as before, PGND is the power supply ground, L is

100mH, R2 is 10 ohms and C2 is 1 uF.

This worked also. (Though I still have the high frequency currents flowing through the shield.)

The values were picked from what was lying around, It was late Friday and I decided to declare victory and go home.

There is a symmetrical R and C on the negative supply line.

If you've read this far, Thanks.

Is there something obvious I might have missed? Some way to make it better?

I'm not sure which of the above configurations to use.... My fear is that neither may end up working. I worry about sending the ground currents from the filter section through the gain section.

Thanks again,

George H.

Reply to
George Herold
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Do what most engineers do... Stamp it approved and get it sold...

Reply to
Jon Slaughter

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Ahh, Well it's a small company, I have to test it before it leaves and fix it if it comes back. Better to get it right before it ships.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Possibility #1: Are any of the other BNC connectors between each stage isolated, or are they metal shelled types shorting through the metal panel, giving you unexpected return currents?

Thought #2: The fact that the signal gets oscillations on it, and all this gain peaking, when you connect the filter to the input of the amp implies you are putting too much capacitance on the input to the amplifier. Solutions are usually to either add say 10pF in the feedback loop of the amp (assuming it's as simple as an inverting op amp); or change to a non inverting amp, which is often better behaved; or just pay some attention to the physical connection between these two stages to reduce the capacitance (maybe the filter itself is too capacitive); or add a unity gain buffer between them; or add a cascode stage in front of the amp to isolate incoming capacitance, see here -

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Thought #3: 1.5MHz isn't very fast. Why use coax? Might be simpler to use twisted pair, easier to manufacture than all those fiddly braid stripping & connections.

I suspect I've pitched that explanation below your level, but I hope it helps spark some ideas.

Nemo

In article , George Herold writes

Reply to
Nemo

this.http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/signal_processor/index.shtml

I'm with Nemo's Thought #2: gain-peaking suggests the op-amp's annoyed by its capacitive loading. CL=220pf is about 500 ohms @ 1.5MHz. Even lousy grounding's impedance @ 1.5MHz should be beat that by so much that ground-loop feedback currents shouldn't matter. They might, but they shouldn't.

Nemo's paralleled feedback cap is the cure, or classic op-amp capacitive load isolation techniques, or a different, huskier op-amp.

Nice ASCII art.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Life is much simpler if you ground everything... the PCB ground plane, all the connector shells, the power supply common, everything, to the metal chassis. Your single input-related ground may be flailing as a result of output current.

And I'd recommend not connecting an opamp output to an output connector; you never know what the load may be.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Yep. At a minimum isolate the feedback node from the load:

.-----R2-------------. | | +-----C1-----. | | | | | |\\ | | | | \\ | | Vin >---R1--+---|- \\ | | | >----+---R3--+----> Vout .---|+ / | | / | |/ === GND

I've done that. Or use a buffer.

Which op-amp are we talking about here George?

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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Thanks Nemo, This consumed some of my thoughts over the weekend and I believe one thing I had been missing.. (ignoring) was proper isolation of the power supplies for the two different circuits. I'd been F'ing around with the ground connections, but had the power supplies were connected together. (Except for the last circuit hack which I poseted.) At 1 MHz the 0.1 uF caps I have sprinkled everywhere are a nice low impedance path to ground... and if there's a path some of the current is going to flow.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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James, Thanks for the response. The circuit will typically just drive a piece of coax to a 'scope input. I notcied that adding the coax made the gain peaking a bit worse. Working on the premiss that if you can't make something better you can learn something by making it worse, I tried adding more capacitance to the output. The amp could drive the extra capacitance just fine when the input to the amp stage was external... some signal generator. But crapped out when driven by the 'internal' circuit. I think the added cap was causing more current that was out of phase with the input. And this feeds back to the interanl circuit.. The out of phase stuff is what it 'needs' to oscillate. (Loading down the output with a resistor did nothing.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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Thanks John, I was reading the 'useful hints' on Joerg's website

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and he suggests the exact same thing. (attaching sheild to ground plane at as many points a possible.) I worry about ground loops and magnetic pickup.. But I'll give it a try.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Yeah I could try that too. (I did add a bit of series resistance to the output, but didn't include it in the feed back path as you've shown.

"> Which op-amp are we talking about here George?"

The gain stage starts with two OPA228's each inverting with a gain of

10, 10kOhm feed back resistors with 3.3pF of parallel C, gain 3dB point is about 3MHz. Next is a OPA228 again inverting with Gain of 5. 3dB =3D 4MHz There is then a resistor divider chain that sets the fine gain control... "gain" from 1 to 0.1. This drives a dual OPA2134 opamp. The first stage is non-inverting with a gain of 4 and the second opamp is inverting with a gain of 5. The output drives a multiplier stage that has the highest accuracy when the peak voltage is near 10 volts, The OPA2134's give me a 'full power' bandwidth of something near 900kHz. (I haven't measured this for the latest configuration yet.) The small signal 3dB point of the two opa2134's is 2.1MHz. I can throw away a bit of this bandwidth if that will help make the whole circuit more stable.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

You mean taking the feedback from after the resistor? That's destabilizing.

The problem is this: if the op-amp has a high output impedance, capacitive loads introduce a phase delay. Adding series resistance to the output makes that worse. The classic dodge I sketched eliminates that delay.

Can't look just now--gotta go--but I'll peek back later.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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"> You mean taking the feedback from after the resistor? That's

I don't think so? I just did this,

Which I thought was an 'easy' solution. But I'm going to have to review this. (I made R3 1k ohm.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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Success! Hi all, Well following the hints from Joerg's website and John L.'s suggestion I reinstalled the common ground plane between both havles of the circuit. I added some power line filtering and powered it up. No Gain peaking! The gain is nice and flat right out to 1.6MHz...I will have to look for any ground loop issues, but at the moment it looks like I've found a new circuit approach.

Time for Lunch,

George

Reply to
George Herold

That's fine. I thought you meant this:

.-------R2------. | | | |\\ | | | \\ | Vin >---R1--+---|- \\ | | >---R3--+----> Vout .---|+ / | | | / C load | |/ | === === GND GND

which exacerbates the influence of capacitive loading.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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That's cool. You can a) trace, plan, and carefully manage all the return currents, making many discoveries down the way, but it's just easier and faster to b) nail everything together to a rock-solid ground. /Then/ you invoke 'a'. :-) I call that "belt /and/ suspenders."

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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Yeah, well I've been using approach a) for the last 10+ years. Trying to think carefully about all the return currents.. and as you say, discovering all the paths I hadn't thought about. So now I take several big 'nails' and tack the shield and ground plane together. And then start worrying about return currents all over again? Still I'm ahead, there's one less 'thing' to worry about. (now that the ground plane and sheild are one.)

I also got rid of the isolated BNC on the amplifier output, (which is great!). But now I find a wee bit of AC swtiching supply 'crud' leaking onto the output. I'm not sure this realy matters as the power in the 'crud' looks to be less than the power in the noise... which all should be much less than the power in the 'signal', unless I've really screwed up. I should be able to meausure all this as soon as I plug the multiplier chip in.... Tommorrow.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I recommend no inductors in the ground path, and maybe a transformer isolated output.

Reply to
JosephKK

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