Core loss article

I try to work in the handiest orders of magnitude, which for cores are cm or mm (mm wins because it's an even 10^3 out), uH or nH (I'll usually write mu_0 ~= 1.26 nH/mm, and A_L in nH/t^2 for lower values, but I went with uH for consistency here), MHz (problems are usually given in kHz, but you've got to admit, "0.2MHz" is a smidge faster on the calculator) and uWb (V and us). Adopting

I should add a note that some manufacturers work in kW/m^3 (Ferroxcube I believe usually does), which is equal as you say.

Further, I should change it for consistency's sake to uW/mm^3 (again noting the identity), or change the axis to read 10^3 smaller and go with mW/mm^3. Or W/mm^3 and label the axis with multipliers (0.1m, 1m, 10m, ...).

I did in fact change the horizontal axis on the plot; Micrometals gives their graphs in gauss and oersted, which just... oh come now. Yes, gauss are just teslas done with cm^-2 instead of m^-2, but that factor of it's-not-a-power-of-10^3 bothers me more.

Especially if they have trouble getting into that candy center, in which case a verbose title helps, or an index page.... but not some asshole Usenet poster shoving around links with no description. ;o)

And so on-- hence why I didn't cover that, because it's a whole mess of thermal budget and temperatures and airflow and blah blah blah... Highly important of course, just beyond scope. The procedure is given that, once you know how much power you can withstand in a component or its rough outline, you can find the power.

They do actually give some examples:

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Powdered cores are like global warming: it's fine for a while, then, hockey stick!

They also go into more detail on that "messy stuff" here (and in a few other articles), which is very useful. Some manufacturers don't bother (or their website is so old that it's impossible to find if they do), which is very nice of them.

Yes, and material, especially ferrite selection, is easily another short article's worth. Frequency, power, thermal, geometry, and maybe special purpose specs like tempco and linearity, etc.

Samey samey -- (most?) manufacturers go on Bpk for a sine wave, which of course is the only condition under which this is strictly valid (a square wave will have, say, 10 or 20% higher losses, which you can calculate knowing the harmonics).

Now, asymmetry and such, I've never seen data regarding that.

Let's see. Assuming losses are predominantly eddy currents (i.e., "classical Steinmetz model"), as it saturates, permeability drops, so skin depth goes up, which makes the particles look bigger, which should reduce eddy currents.

Depending on how you're driving (constant deltaB, H, ???), the amount of B-H curve traveled may or may not change. Eyeballing a B-H curve, the opening shuts off towards saturation, but that's not necessarily an indication that hysteresis is, in fact, smaller in that region, especially for a small cycle rather than full loop excitation.

Ferrites, at least, tend to get toastier towards saturation. I don't know if that's a nonlinear effect or just because, yeah, drive it harder and it gets hotter. Seems to me, manufacturers rarely provide losses in ferrite past 0.2T or so (i.e., not up to 0.3 or 0.4T depending on material and temperature).

Tell that to anyone who's tried using a #26 core in a boost converter. ;)

But as the point is being able to determine if it's right or wrong, anyone looking at a #26 core will be able to make that determination easily now.

In a properly made component, copper and core are equally important. As I observed, that #26 core might only handle a few VA, but the copper might handle 80W, nothing to sneeze at. It takes the right application.

Copper is probably more important than the core in RF chokes. For being a pile of dusty iron, mix #2 is surprisingly low loss: most points on the graph show a Q over 100. You'll be hard pressed to maintain a Q that high once you've put some pesky wire around it, especially the sheer amount you need to get a useful inductance from such a low permeability core. But then, I've got a power transfer mindset in that statement -- even at a few MHz, I need more inductance than an RF final at 20MHz does, which puts bigger demands on the copper, which either smothers the core or ruins the Q. Simple solution, buy a #8 or something higher permeability like that -- losses are higher, but you use less copper.

Micrometals strikes again on the matter: they published typical curves of Q vs. typical cores and materials for actual windings. Hard to beat that.

Yes, transformers have different limitations -- I went into some of this in an older article here,

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if you know how much copper you can get into the thing, and how much core you get (i.e., the quad product), and various other application-specific assumptions (resistivity, power loss, etc.), you can calculate the power handling capacity of that core in a typical application, allowing them to be ranked in much the same way as in this article, and a choice (or at least initial selection) made.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams
Loading thread data ...

I have "pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.3-1.40.12 (MiKTeX 2.9) (preloaded format=pdflatex 2012.12.9)" in the log file, to be painfully specific.

LaTeX has quite a learning curve, but it can't be beaten for geeky, mathy publication-grade material, and it's damn powerful.

Dunno, it's just \item to me :)

Say, any idea how much the fonts account for in the file size?

About 340k should be due to images, give or take compression methods. Geez, more than 30% of the total is just the choke picture... can hardly bear myself to dent its pixel count though, it's a very shiny picture... go ahead... zoom in on it... :p

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

^ ^ ^

Ahh, that'd be the choke pic... it should be JPG internally, so your tool converted it to PNG somewhere I guess.. which obviously poofs it a bit.

Good to know, thanks.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

This seems sort of like limbo dancing on hot coals with a blindfold.

If you know the end use environment and physical/legislated limitations, you extiguish the coal bed - end-use suitability.

If you've only got a certain amount of real estate and volume permitted, a few penciled notations will give you the height of the bar - total watts not to be exceeded.

Then you're in a position to vette core/winding shapes and to juggle losses from copper and core in each paper iteration.

Aging is another issue. Brand new parts have thermally dependent loss.

Note that Magnetics Inc and Arnold powder cores do not experience aging effects.

The aging effect is a binding material issue of Micrometals and any other company that copied their materials and processes by rote.

Only in so much as once noted, it can influence a limiting hot-spot temperature value in preliminary loss limits.

The sine wave was chosen for repeatability and simplicity of standardized testing, early on in development, when there weren't many other options or reasons to seek them. For squarish waveshapes, it's deltaB = Vt/NA.

Another testing standard is the use of toroids as test vehicles. This is not easy for some grades that are not intended to be marketed in this form, leading to some vendors giving loss limits for some commercial shapes at spot frequuencies and flux densities. This provides for crude interpolation.

EPCOS offers articles and a nomogram to determine ratiometric relationships between sinusoidal values and more complex waveshapes, but I'm not sure what they're trying to say, really. google - "Computing ferrite losses" Mukherjee

It's something that Snelling never formally investigated (unpublished anyways), but did mention that he saw no signifigant influence by premagnetization. Brockmeyer, on the other hand, noted increases in loss exceeding 30% at modest DC flux densities ("classical Steinmetz model"), as it saturates, permeability drops, so skin

In most applications, ie in transformer-coupled supplies with regulated output filter circuits, deltaB is regulated as a 'byproduct' of the regulated output voltage. The voltseconds ARE the output voltage and NA is a physical constant.

It's surprising to me, sometimes, just who decides to write about what. But don't let that stop you from reading or writing - just maybe look for sources that don't depend on the world-wide web alone for their existence. Real research papers, articles, course materials and thesis matter are also available for download, if you use the appropriate search terms and can patiently wade through the clutter.

Alas, Snelling is not yet available for download, but a first or second edition might be at your local reference or engineering library, for selective photocopying.

RL

RL

Reply to
legg

Here's a fairly well illustrated paper from 2010, showing DC biasing (premagnetization or reverse magnetization) effects on core loss. Covers ferrite, nanocrystalline, MPP (molypermalloy dust ~sendust) and silicon steel.

"Core Losses under DC Bias Condition based on Steinmetz Parameters" J. Muhlethaler, J. Biela, J. W. Kolar, and A. Ecklebe

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RL

Reply to
legg

Looks pretty good, and not too "inTIMidating" to a magnetophobe such as I tend to be. I think this might be good to use for an on-line calculator using JavaScript. As an example of what I have done, see:

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Assuming I have your permission, of course, although the formulas seem to be those usually found elsewhere.

Would this work for a tape wound iron or silicon steel core toroid? Or EI cores?

Thanks,

Paul

Reply to
P E Schoen

clogged

I found i had to download it to get it to open. After that it is fine.

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

Absolutely, and please do!

I was tempted to get fancy, and make an image import - graph calibration - point calculation program, but decided it would be a bit over the top. A bit tedious in Java, probably a couple lines of Python for someone so inclied though.

Intent would be, import a picture, pick some useful coordinates on the picture and specify what coordinates they're supposed to represent on the graph, and whether it's linear, semilog or log, and it takes care of interpolation and any perspective correction automatically. Further correction, like with an inverse NURBS or something, would certainly be handy for working with book scans or photos (curve corrections), but a bit over the top for an otherwise simple app I think.

That said, such a tool would be useful in general, especially provided online as an applet, rather than as commercial software.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com 

"P E Schoen"  wrote in message  
news:kcq9ft$uqs$1@dont-email.me... 
"Tim Williams"  wrote in message news:kcihoq$cpa$1@dont-email.me... 

> http://www.seventransistorlabs.com/IndLoss/Core_Loss.pdf 

Looks pretty good, and not too "inTIMidating" to a magnetophobe such as I 
tend to be. I think this might be good to use for an on-line calculator 
using JavaScript. As an example of what I have done, see: 
http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm 

Assuming I have your permission, of course, although the formulas seem to  
be 
those usually found elsewhere. 

Would this work for a tape wound iron or silicon steel core toroid? Or EI 
cores? 

Thanks, 

Paul
Reply to
Tim Williams

It appears that he used latex (I found the following neat the end of the file)

/Creator(LaTeX with hyperref package) /Producer(pdfTeX-1.40.12)

it's a pity about the graphs, they should have been done as EPS, but appear to have been done as JPG.

--
?? 100% natural
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Sadly I don't have the originals -- don't suppose there's a cheap, free tool to vectorize (or data-ify) a raster graph?

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

I thought you had the source, they look like they might have come from gnuplot.

someone posted about one here last year.

--
?? 100% natural 

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Probably me. I use "Data Graph Digitizer"...

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to extract numbers from graphs on data sheets.

I then run the numbers thru "WinCurveFit"...

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to get an equation which I then use in Spice modeling. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I don't even do that. When it comes to browsers, I'm a technophobe. I download the damn file and manually open it in Acrobat (not the reader). I haven't looked at this one yet.

Rick

Reply to
rickman

I don't know what state you are in, but in many states it is no big deal to set up a corporation. In Maryland the only complaint is that I have to pay them $300 a year to keep it current, otherwise it is no real work. Oh, I also pay $150 to have the tax return done.

Rick

Reply to
rickman

    ...Jim Thompson

Jim,

Tried to download WinCurveFit since this morning and even now at 2 am can't seemto do it. comes up ftp busy? or URL speled wrong. [this is the from the page itself] Strange the page looks correct.

Can you send me a copy of the .zip directly? arrgg! gmail probably won't accept it and not even tell me.

I used to fool gmail accounts by changing files to filenamezip.txt and THEN rezip and that way the gmail allowed what it thought was a .txt file through instead of a zipped .exe file.

Reply to
Robert Macy

Sent as wcf118.piz ;-)

If you don't get it, let me know and I'll put it up on my website. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

formatting link
...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

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