Copyright on HP service manuals

HP dumped their REALLY crap scopes on the military. The worst scope I ever tried to use was an HP in a waterproof AGE[1] box. Not only did it have the legendary "can't trigger" problem that's endemic to HP scopes, but the waterproof knobs gave new meaning to the term "backlash."

But then again, the only thing I could honestly testify to re HP test equipment is they never got the triggering as good as Tek. All of their other stuff was, as we all know, essentially perfect.

Cheers! Rich

[1] Aerospace Ground Equipment

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That doesn't make sense. All the department has to do is hand over the manuals to the library (this _is_ in an academic emvironment!) and let them put the manuals in Reserve, where they can be checked out for a very limited amount of time, say two hours, and not be taken from the facility. The student can then peruse, or even copy them if he has a pocketful of dimes. At least this is how we do it at the college where I work. Actually, the student can now buy credits on a card to put in the copier, so he doesn't even need coins to make copies. One can see this big warning sign above the copier with legalese about copyright restrictions etc. Mostly ignored. :-P

[snip]

Everyone, including the legal system, should view certain types of manuals as different than other IP. In the case of an instruction manual, this is is directly related to the instrument, and has no real use or value on its own. Therefor the owner of an instrument should have the right to own this manual, no matter where or how it was obtained. I would go as far as to say that the instrument maker should be obligated to supply one to the owner upon proof of ownership, but the makers wouldn't want to be stuck with that responsibility.

OTOH the repair, service, maintenance manuals are another case, and since they might reveal something about the instrument that's not notmally available to the owner, the owner wouldn't have any right to these manuals.

[snip]

Hear! Hear!

Naturally I disagree: Owners of hardware should be able to get the service manuals for their purchased equipment. Some sellers want to keep the repair profits for themselves, but in my opinion this is unwise. OK, we'll leave that point. However, surely you agree that if the manufacturer made detailed service manuals available at the time of original sale, as HP did, the associated IP should be treated the same as the instruction manual, per your statement.

Which check is that?

--
 Thanks,
    - Win

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Well, the 'unreadable' and 'missing' sound to me like that's a copying or scanning problem, not the fault of the manual itself.

Generally, when I was in the army, the manuals were broken down into 5 levels.

1 - operation (like how to drive a car) 2 - maintenance (like how to change the oil, add water to radiator, etc.) 3 - service (like tires, batteries, etc.) 4 - field repair (like fixing the starter or the brakes) 5 - depot repair (like rebuilding the engine)

Those 5 "echelons" are only a rough idea of how the manuals were arranged. Some military manuals were combined, such as a "-35" manual included the 3rd thru 5th echelon - basically everything about service and repair. A "-15" manual would be all of the above.

You may have to get 2 or more military manuals to get all the info that might be in a regular equipment manual from the manufacturer.

Well, if you are in the military, I would imagine that all of that is now online and available to the authorized people.

Welcome to the Real World. Bugs eat papers, manuals and books. Acid in the paper makes it turn brittle and brown after a few decades, making it nearly useless. But these problems are not related to the topic were discussing. However the bookworms should be very concerned about the copyright restrictions because they are severely restricting their food source! ;-)

[snip]

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Aw, c'mon, Rich! We all know that perfect is a straight wire with gain, with a bandwidth from DC to daylight. And we all know that even HP couldn't do that. Nice try.

The check to purchase the third edition of a "certain universally respected textbook of Electronics Engineering" mentioned above, of course.

By the way, I bought the second edition used. I'd consider it an honor to be able to cut a check for a new copy of the 3rd edition, so the authors could directly see the benefit.

In business, the best way to say "thanks for the help" is in cash. Which is kind of the point of this whole discussion, I suppose.

Thanks (of the non-monetary variety this time, I'm afraid) Chris

Have they licensed reproduction of manuals? All the ones listed seem to be the usual used manual brokers.

John

Yes, this is the classic 0 dB brickenbox amplifier.

John

I read in sci.electronics.design that snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote (in ) about 'Copyright on HP service manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:

Why stop a dinosaurs, 65 million years ago? The oldest DNA still identifiable in living creatures ('cyanobacteria') is about 3.8 billion years old.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

I read in sci.electronics.design that Robert Baer wrote (in ) about 'Copyright on HP service manuals', on Sat, 23 Apr 2005:

But they vary a lot. When British Standards were available in public libraries on microfiche, some were OK and others almost unreadable. One man's fiche is another man's poisson.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

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It's been too many years -- placing the manuals on reserve in the Engineering Department library is an obvious idea. A smart instrument manufacturer might also allow professors to make a copy for their personal use or to chain down in the lab, where it's most useful.

If I buy a old used car which is no longer supported by the dealer network (like a '67 Ford Mustang), I expect a set of keys from the seller, not Ford. I wouldn't buy a car without them. I feel the manuals are an integral part of the whole instrument package, and I also feel that a manual should be sold with a used/obsolete instrument if it was originally sold with that manual. Ideally, the seller of the obsolete instrument should provide that manual, and buy it if he doesn't have it.

Fact is, though, most sellers of old HP instruments don't provide the manuals. That means we've got to scrounge them up. Agilent provides a list of suggested vendors here:

I ran down the eight web links listed on the above page looking for the HP 5370B manual. ManualsPlus has it for $75.00 USD. Consolidated Surplus (which is double-linked, there are actually only seven in the list) shows available, price not listed. W.J. Ford Surplus Enterprises shows Not Available but e-mail to be sure (too bad -- they rent manuals for $10/month!). The others come up blank. Also, yesterday I made a call to another vendor I occasionally use and found that he had it, too. He wanted more than $75 for it, though.

To be honest, I think all of these arguments about how manufacturers should provide more manuals for old, orphaned instruments, or broadcast them free on the internet, would hold a lot more water if there weren't any used, legal manuals out there.

If I could be permitted an analogy. Let's look at the user manual "The Joy of Sex" by Alex Comfort. The book is not sex. You don't need the manual to engage in sex, or to experience joy in sex. The manual has no intrinsic use for sex on its own, unless you happen to want to know how to use your instrument better. However, Dr. Comfort's heirs (he passed away a few years ago, I hear) would be most unhappy to hear that, because of these admittedly true facts, you copied the manual. They would, however, encourage you to engage in sex to your heart's content, even if the instrument is old, and even if it is no longer well-"supported". As I remember (it's been about 25 years (since I

*read the book*, Rich!) ), Dr. Comfort actually recommended that. :-P

I still think a lot of this discussion comes down to whether electronics designers (who, after all, are being paid to create intellectual property) are just trying to skate around the necessity of paying for somebody else's intellectual property, which has admitted value. Otherwise, why would we be having this discussion at all?

I understand everything that's been said about this by others, and actually agree with a lot of it. I respect these opinions, and everyone here has good arguments. But I'm not going to change my opinion, because it's a matter of principle and the way I do business. My employer or customer is paying for his pleasures. Period. If it's copyrighted, the person who's paying will get a legal copy. There are better ways to save a few bucks. And if I buy a used and non-supported HP instrument (like the HP3456A), I'll spend $25 more for a legal manual, even though I could find a copy. That's one of the joys of being in business.

If the copyright laws need to be changed (and Frith knows they do), then let's change 'em.

Chris

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Try this source. I got some HP manuals from Ed Matsuda for a very reasonable price. His email address is edmatsuda earthlink.net.

[snip]

Well, that doesn't help if the data on the disk itself gets corrupted. Then you get the all-too-familiar A: drive "Abort, Retry, Fail ?" error message and you're still SOL.

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:32:23 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark

No, no. That's the LIRPA, from that QST article "Power a-plenty - for pennies!" You just take the fat wire out of the back of your transmitter, and connect it to a skinny wire, and at the joint, all the electrons crowd together trying to get through the skinny wire, causing a dramatic increase in voltage, much like a traffic jam.

;-P Rich

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I though I read here that they had issued licenses, but I didn't check
their website to make sure. Mea Culpa...

Ha, I *like* it. That's the sort of stuff that a lawyer could understand. Maybe they'd change their tune if they thought they might be liable for withholding safety information from users.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

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I disagree. If the instrument maker supplied an instruction manual
with the instrument when it was first sold, then, as far as I\'m
concerned,  he\'s under no obligation to provide further _free_ copies
of that documentation.  As a courtesy, it might be nice for them to do
so, but why should they _have_ to?

Ah! At Last! A thread that has piqued the Grand Masters! ;-P ;-P ;-)

--
Cheers!
Rich
 ------
 "SHOW ME THE WAY"

Well, notwithstanding the extraneous apostrophe, the whole thing was a gag. Its name, LIRPA, is "April" spelled backwards, a la "April Fools!"

(to be fair, they didn't say just "Lirpa," they said "Lirpa 1".) :-)

--
Cheers!
Rich
 ------
 "Flappity, floppity, flip 
  The mouse on the Mobius strip;
  The strip revolved,
  The mouse dissolved
 In a chronodimensional skip."