Class D audio amp driving long leads

Mainly generated noise. The "network speakers" are self-contained beasts; the box can be shielded, wires connecting driver to speaker are short, speaker selected for its inductive characteristics, etc. So, no need for an LC filter (which adds cost -- important if you are thinking about a commodity product).

I'm using a similar *functionality* in how I implement the "doorbell", here. I.e., drive a speaker based on (a) digital input(s) The layout of this house is such that we'd need two speakers (or, one OBNOXIOUSLY LOUD speaker). I suspect this is common for many homes (e.g., growing up, you could never hear the doorbell if you were in the basement, doing laundry, etc.) And, if these were independant units, then they would have to talk to each other -- at the very least to be able to inform each other as to *which* "door" is calling for service.

As this functionality (i.e., doorbell) is a basic function that every home requires (?), I've lumped it in the implementation of the HVAC system -- which has similar DIO's. This also addresses the fact that doorbells tend to have components located *near* the furnace in most homes (e.g., the 24VAC xformer). So, it's a starting point for introducing automation to a home.

It's only logical that I would like to leverage the network speaker design to provide this functionality. Granted, it has more capability than is

*required* for a simple doorbell but easier to leverage that part of the design and treat the speakers as having the same capabilities of the "network speakers" than to have to explain why the doorbell speakers can't be used to play music, announcements, etc. the way the *other* network speakers can perform. ("Why can't I listen to the radio over the doorbell speakers?" "Why can't the doorbell speakers inform me of the identity of the caller on the telephone?" "Why can't my SO use the speakers as a crude 'paging' system when I'm on the other side of the house?" etc.)

But, driving two *distant* speakers from a single point means "speaker cables". In our case, two 30 ft lengths in essentially opposite directions. In other homes in which I've lived, that could easily have been 60 ft! Nice long "intentional radiators". I can't rely on the connections to the speaker being short (like in the "integrated" network speaker design). Nor for them to be contained in a shielded enclosure, etc. I probably can't even ensure the user will use a particular *driver* (speaker) with this set up!

So, the question boils down to whether or not I should replicate the network speaker design *in* the HVAC controller (essentially, just add one set of I/O's to the "other" and software, accordingly) *or* just leverage the software and adopt a different hardware configuration. Especially when the hardware changes are largely confined to just the audio amplifier!

I think in the ~400KHz range.

Reply to
Don Y
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** Arrant nonsense.

Just as stupid as your idiot resistor remark.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

The network speakers use a class D amp because they are power-constrained; they take their power from a PoE drop. The "doorbell" is powered from a local power source (with a fallback to PoE as the local power source is not battery backed; while the HVAC needn't be, the doorbell *should*!). So, the choices I have available are slightly different.

The same sort of issue applies to the alarm system (the actual "annunciators" or "sirens" are "exterior grade loudspeakers"). It has the same dual-power scheme as the HVAC/doorbell -- with the addition of a local battery for backup so it is not *reliant* on the backed up PoE power source to deny that attack vector.

Reply to
Don Y

** So what are you WORRIED about?

A bit of garbage on the AM band that barely travels beyond the house?

FFS try it out and stop annoying us with stupid guessing games.

... Phil

The "network speakers" are self-contained beasts;

Reply to
Phil Allison

There you go. Phil has certified it as correct. He hasn't been very nice about it, but he never is.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Youch, (I always get an earful when I ask you a question :^) I have no idea how much zip cord will radiate... As Phil A. so politely points out, you could try the Bob Pease trick and use an AM radio to measure the radiation.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Well, hopefully it gives you an idea of how *others* will possibly install them! I.e., can't expect them to use shielded cable (even if you provide it -- "it wasn't long enough for our home!"). Nor can I even rely on the speaker to be electrically attached to the leads (to complete the filter). And, that I'm not talking about a little "headphone amplifier"! :-/

Likewise, see why I can "get away with" the class D approach in the "network speaker" instance (because the entire design can be controlled including the package!). And, why I'm not *bound* to inherit the same design FOR THE AUDIO AMP (i.e., the portion of the design that is most troublesome from an EMI point of view) in these two "applications" (yet indicating why the class D approach is "necessary" for the network speaker design).

I.e., being able to drop the class D design into these other designs would be a big "design win" but little more.

I don't think they'll buy that when I go for Part 15 compliance: "Well, it didn't *seem* like it radiated 'too much' when I tried it on a prototype. So, why do I have to revise the design and come back here for *more* testing? Can't you just *say* it's OK? You know, all this revision and testing costs *money*!" A friend who spends a fair bit of time at a test lab suggests its NOT where I want to spend my money... :-/

[And, I have no idea what *several* of these will do to the RF environment which could compromise the rest of the system]

I think I'll play it safe and just look for a different solution that allows me to drop in "whatever" amplifier technology is appropriate for the individual applications -- not count on duplicating the design for particular one, literally. This means a change to the class D design as I'm pretty sure the controls in that amplifier won't be available "as is" in another (e.g., AB) amplifier. Maybe redesign as a common (digitally controlled) "preamp" stage with a different *fixed* gain amplifier stage that follows (AB vs D).

[Enjoying your snow? Or, are you far enough inland to have been spared that "treat"? :> ]
Reply to
Don Y

I was curious to see if that was really the case so I dug out three speakers from the junk box. Here are my readings:

a) Speaker 1. Suspected Car Radio type 20W?. Labelled as "249-902" "Four and half inch High Power 4 ohm" DCR measured 3.6ohm Ind (cone at rest) 17.2uH Ind (cone pushed in ca 1mm) 16.9uH Ind (cone pushed out ca 1mm) 17.6uH

b) Speaker 2. Suspected Portable TV type 6W?. Labelled as "Art Audio 4L-02" ?8ohm Inches 4x4x2(deep) DCR meas 5.5ohm Ind (rest) 110uH Ind (in 1mm) 102uH Ind (out 1mm) 119uH

c) Speaker 3. I guess answering machine/intercom type 1W?. Labelled as "52-185 Taiwan 8ohm" 92x92x31mm DCR 6.9ohm Ind (rest) 37.6uH Ind (in 1mm) 37.1uH Ind (out 1mm) 42.1uH

d) Ceramic "TV style" 4 watt resistor 6R8 DCR 6.85ohm Ind 0.188uH

e) Ceramic "TV style" 4 watt resistor 4R7 DCR 4.8ohm Ind 0.110uH

f) Straight piece of wire same length as above resistors DCR 0 Ind 0.006uH

I do not think the resistors I used are non-inductive judging by the price and comparison with the piece of wire. I measured speaker inductance with cone at rest and pushed in and out in case the displacement from magnet core affected the inductance a lot.

piglet

Reply to
piglet

OK Don, my bad, I thought this was a one-of for your home. The only obvious answer I would have is to roll off the sharp edges of the class D amp.

Yeah! (We didn't get any of the storm that hit the east coast.) Lake Erie is frozen over so the lake effect snow machine is turned off. But we've had a nice long cold spell. The kids and I went sledding down our road in the woods last week and will repeat this weekend. (A white knuckler) I grill Kielbasa at the top of the hill. (I think food in the woods is half the reason they come out with me.) The creek is frozen and it's a wonderful walk. (If I remember I'll post some pics to make you jealous, (or maybe joyous, if you really hate the cold.)) I was skating on a flat section of the creek last week. I was thinking if I had a little hand pump I could cut a hole upstream and flood the flat section to make it better... but that's mostly a pipe dream.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

No. That would be one of the *.hobbyist newsgroups! :> I'm trying to ensure my designs can "go to market" without needing substantial redesign. Life's too short to have to design things

*twice*!

Gotta be a great sight sitting in the middle of that big space surrounded by snow! Without all the ick and muck that comes with "snow in the city"!

So, the snow has a *crust* to support a sled? Or, is it "powder" best suited to tobaggons, etc.? In my book, anything without steel runners isn't a sled!

Kielbasa grilled is *so* much tastier than boiled (which is how it was always prepared when I was growing up)!

Naw, I *miss* the cold weather. When you're cold, you can always put on another layer. When you're *hot*, once you get down to SKIN, there's nothing more that you can do! (i.e., without resorting to supplemental heating/cooling).

Particularly miss good apples!

Lots of small ponds where I grew up. Trick was getting the accumulated snow off them before you could skate! (and, keeping the snowmobiles off until then!)

Reply to
Don Y

Hi Phil,

I get the impression that arguing with Bill is a waste of time. He has his fingers planted firmly in his ears, his eyes tightly shut and his mouth running continuously. Otherwise, great posts.

Reply to
David Eather

Sounds like sticking an LC on the class D output is going to give you an easy life. Why not do it?

NT

Reply to
meow2222

Flattering Phil doesn't actually work.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

I've stopped reading any of the Bill vs X posts. Did I miss something good? (If it comes to audio Phil A. is da man... and I assume my speaker coils have inductance.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

power resistor is the usual claim.

The only inductance information I could find for wire-wound resistors was h ere

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It lists a couple wire-wound resistors as 7uH (including one that was sold as "non-inductive"). This is about half your lowest speaker inductance.

You have measure distinctly low-fi speakers, which will generate more forc e per unit current over a small travel with a more nearly complete magnetic circuit.

The ceramic resistors you have listed are are unlikely to be wire-wound - t he usual construction is metal-oxide ink backed onto a ceramic former, and

- if necessary - spiral trimmed to the desired resistance. Form an inductan ce point of view they are much the same any axial metal film or carbon film resistor.

Wire-wound resistors have rather more turns.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

** What instrument did you use ?

That last figure ( 6nH ) is a doozey.

All your speakers are small and the first example likely has an inductance cancelling ring embedded in the pole piece.

The inductance figure (Le) for speakers is normally quoted with a test frequency of 1kHz - cos the iron core becomes very lossy at higher frequencies.

FYI the inductance figure for larger speakers, like 12 inch woofers, is around 2mH.

Compared to you 6.8 ohm resistor, the inductance ratio is 10,000:1.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

A drop box link

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Wife, dogs and ice.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

The usual rule of thumb figure for an inch (25.4mm) of wire is 10nH. Measur ing it can be tricky.

e cancelling ring embedded in the pole piece.

First I've heard of one of them - which doesn't mean much, since I've never been involved with speaker drive units beyond driving examples I bought pr e-assembled into a loud-speaker cabinet.

equency of 1kHz - cos the iron core becomes very lossy at higher frequencie s.

In fact it becomes a shorted turn, which can be quite lossy.

round 2mH.

Probably a fairly efficient one, with a fair variation in force per unit cu rrent over it's travel.

Comparted with 7uH - which sounds plausible for a small wire-wound resistor - it's 300:1.

Bitrex's resistors are probably oxide film rather than wire-wound. Maybe sp iral-trimmed, but lots fewer turns than a wire-wound part.

I found 7uH for a 10W non-inductive wire wound on a hifi nut web-page.

formatting link

10W is actually rather small for a wire-wound resistor - I've used 100W par ts (aluminium clad, which would make a pretty dramatic shorted turn aka ind uctance cancelling ring). For audio-amplifier testing you'd want something with around that wattage, but you wouldn't spend money on aluminium clad pa rts to be bolted onto ritzy heat sink extrusions, as I was doing.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

od?

have > inductance.)

Of course they have. Just not all that much. The UK claim (that Phil is ske ptical about) was that a wire-wound resistor was inductive enough to be an adequate replacement for a real loudspeaker drive unit for amplifier testin g.

The kind of amplifier that is worth testing can usually deliver 50W/100W, s o it's a fairly big wire-wound resistor, and we aren't talking about metal- clad power resistors - it's a for a test rig, not something your spouse wou ld be asked to tolerate in the living room.

Phil's finally come up with a numerical claim that a 12" (30cm) woofer driv er can have a inductance of 2mH, which means that an 8 ohm coil would start looking inductive at about 600Hz.

I suspect he's picked on an efficient low frequency speaker for a public ad dress system. Speakers for music reproduction tend to be less efficient wit h more open magnetic structures and even weaker coupling and lower inductan ces.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

True, but possibly more like the OP application. I do not have any HiFi speakers in my junk box :{

This is from the datasheet:

"SBCHE Series, Axial 4W/5W Flame-proof wirewound resistors with superior electrical and mechanical characteristics Resistance wire wound on a fibreglass core and protected by a ceramic body Combines good thermal characteristics with high insulation resistance, and gives good physical protection Lead length allows vertical or horizontal mounting."

I could try smashing one apart to verify in a few days.

piglet

Reply to
piglet

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