available toroids

I've been looking for a toroid with a cross section area (one side) of probably 2 or 3 square centimeters and an id of about 10 or 12 mm. The intended inductor is about 14 micro henries and will handle between 40 to 80 amps in a flyback power supply at, again probably, 100 kc. Fair-Rite, Micrometals, and Magnetics show, at the desired id, cross sections typically less than 1 sqcent. Greater cross sections show greater id's and consequently greater lengths. These toroids would result in windings using only a portion of available space with the rest of the toroid doing nothing but dissipating power. Anyone know of some suppliers that have the bulky type of toroids that are required in this case? Or, perhaps, another approach to limit the dissipation?

Hul

Reply to
Hul Tytus
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You might need to stack them. Or use a potcore.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

Stacking might work. Certainly worth lookin into. The pot cores of the 3 makers I checked had the same density/linear dimension as the toroids.

Thanks, Hul

amdx wrote:

Reply to
Hul Tytus

This is a 20.2uH@0A choke:

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for a 50A buck-boost @200kHz. 32mm OD on stacked high-quality 27mm HiFlux cores. I'm afraid that with your requirements it's not gonna happen.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

If you consider ferrites at all, SFDT says that to handle 80A at 14uH you would need U100/57:

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There are no pot cores that big.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

7x HF-106125-2. Not exactly compact.

Why a flyback in the first place? A half/full/push-pull bridge with a current doubler looks more realistic. Or a planar core, say E43, with the secondary made of copper a plate.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

Piotr Wyderski wrote in news:qvt9k7$vun$ snipped-for-privacy@gioia.aioe.org:

I saw 45mm pot cores on that site. I think larger are out there.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

If there are, Ferroxcube doesn't produce them. But come on, even the best in class 3C92 material can handle 0.46T at 100C. This is not a job for ferrite. HiFlux can handle 1.5T.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

Piotr Wyderski wrote in news:qvtbgs$18di$ snipped-for-privacy@gioia.aioe.org:

Stacked toroids.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

A wrong solution to a wrong problem. This 80A flyback should not even be considered seriously, to begin with.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

Piotr Wyderski wrote in news:qvtcre$1drf$ snipped-for-privacy@gioia.aioe.org:

Not the same but I made a 180kV supply once that was oil immersed.

+90kv - -90kV. We used multipliers.

Flyback relies on collapsing field. good to produce high voltages with small push. You need a sine transformation into your multipliers to pass some meat with the motion.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

snipped-for-privacy@decadence.org wrote in news:qvtdfl$1h82$1 @gioia.aioe.org:

You need a sine transformation into your

IOW, I agree with you. An 80 A flyback sounds like a bit much.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Why does it have to be so small I.D.? It'll barely fit, hmm, maybe five turns at the required ampacity?

You're welcome to ask mfgs for custom parts but don't be surprsed if they roll their eyes at your quantity or budget.

There is a machinable powder material, that I'm familiar with through its use in induction heating coils. Don't remember who makes it, but maybe it has low enough losses you can make use of it.

As others mentioned, this is an X-Y problem. You should not be asking "how do I make this fuckoff massive inductor?", when the obvious uestion is "how can I avoid using a fuckoff massive inductor?"

You didn't mention voltage, but if it's modest (10-100V?), this is very much in the realm of a multiphase, full wave, forward converter. Push-pull is preferred at low voltages, full bridge in the middle, half bridge at high voltages (say >800V). Phase interleave is preferred at low voltages. The point is to reduce the peak current any given switch sees, keeping the inverter impedance reasonable (above an ohm at least). Which makes layout tractable, and keeps switching losses down. Phase interleave also saves on ripple current seen by the input and output filter caps, another savings not to be underestimated.

Resonant can also be considered at the power level, but it's probably not a big deal because the inverter impedance will be so low, i.e., stray inductance will dominate the dynamics, not switch capacitance. Well, an inverted resonant might be okay, but current-fed inverters and upside-down topologies aren't exactly beginners topics.

If isolation is not actually necessary, boost or SEPIC is perfectly reasonable of course. Multiphase is still desirable for all the above reasons.

With these changes, you should also find commercial offerings are very available. You probably won't find transformers this size, or whatever ratio you're looking for, but that's easy enough to custom order.

And yes, multiphase repeats a lot of stuff, it's a PITA to hand build. Consider making a common module and ordering assemblies in quantity, then make one common control/distribution board to plug them into. Much cheaper when engineer proto hours are considered.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design 
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/ 

"Hul Tytus"  wrote in message  
news:qvsipk$30i$1@reader2.panix.com... 
> 
> I've been looking for a toroid with a cross section area (one side) of 
> probably 2 or 3 square centimeters and an id of about 10 or 12 mm. The 
> intended inductor is about 14 micro henries and will handle between 40 to  
> 80 
> amps in a flyback power supply at, again probably, 100 kc. 
> Fair-Rite, Micrometals, and Magnetics show, at the desired id, cross 
> sections typically less than 1 sqcent. Greater cross sections show greater 
> id's and consequently greater lengths. These toroids would result in  
> windings 
> using only a portion of available space with the rest of the toroid doing 
> nothing but dissipating power. 
> Anyone know of some suppliers that have the bulky type of toroids that are 
> required in this case? Or, perhaps, another approach to limit the  
> dissipation? 
> 
> Hul
Reply to
Tim Williams

They do get big, I have some Feroxcube 66/56 3C81 potcores, They are

2.5" diameter and 2.1" tall.A sub L is 18,200. :-) Mike
Reply to
amdx

Ferroxcube produced some 240mm OD ferrite toroids for me, so they make some pretty big rings. No, I didn't want them for switching power supplies.

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

Thanks Piotr - generally ferroxcube appeared to be a supplier to check. Having a specific target on their web site (or Newark's) is convenient.

Hul

Piotr Wyderski wrote:

Reply to
Hul Tytus

Thanks again Piotr. I'll take a look. As to the use of the flyback, it is simple. The objective is charging a lead acid batter of 175 volts from a 120v ac line with a nearly continuous 20 amps without a large cap on the the rectified line.

Hul

Piotr Wyderski wrote:

Reply to
Hul Tytus

Thanks, I'll keep my eyes open & check the other types.

Hul

snipped-for-privacy@decadence.org wrote:

Reply to
Hul Tytus

Mike - good to hear there are such beasts.

Hul

amdx wrote:

Reply to
Hul Tytus

Wow, that's a lot for flyback... Did you already make its clamping network and decided how are you going to deal with heat? What frequency is it supposed to run at?

175V at 20A is just mere 3.5kW, child's play for a flyback, right?

Man, for such power you need a full bridge...

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Reply to
Sergey Kubushyn

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