Was Runaway Prius Really A Runaway? Or Just A Prank?

Said big auto company was only good at *basic* electronics, explaining the incompetence at a braking system one would presume to require advanced electronics?

He's a law clerk or something, doing his best.

John

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem. It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent, third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

1. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the "sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix" and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

John

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear. I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas, and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area, and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But, again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Paul

Funny you should say that Paul, that is exactly me! I have always driven a manual transmission and likely always will.

My hand tries to grab air and my foot instinctively tries for the missing clutch when I drive someone else's automatic transmission equipped vehicle.

My 2007 Xterra has an electronic throttle but, as you said, I'd simply take it out of gear if it ever accelerated unintentionally.

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Buying a vehicle with an automatic transmission was a concession to age and arthritis (the hardware holding my back together came later). Had I been able to determine which (if any) new vehicles had mechanical linkage from the gas pedal to the throttle, that feature would likely have been a major factor in choosing the new vehicle.

My previous vehicle was a 1989 Nissan pickup (4 cyl, 5 speed manual), which I sold when it was 18 years old and my wife refused to ride in it***. In that vehicle, the electronics were limited to the ignition and radio - plus the cruise control unit I added. The cruise control dropped out immediately when you pressed the brake pedal - and a

*** conversation follows: "You need a new truck." "Yes, dear".

John

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Automation is good as long as there is an override and everyone knows how to use it.

NPR SDSU just had some commentator claim that every vehicle including every hybrid electric has a neutral. If you don't know where the neutral is you shouldn't be on the road in the first place and ought to get a ticket for not knowing how to drive your vehicle.

He was probably speeding and pulled off this entire charade to get out of a ticket.

The story about burning up the brakes is incredible. Unless he was riding the brakes for 280 miles that story is complete bs.

Bret Cahill

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It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from

Bret Cahill

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from 60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only put out a fourth that much power.

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That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997 models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs, although the ECM can increase the idle speed.

With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option, and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes.

Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had a manual tranny option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got

Paul

Here's one good way to stop a runaway vehicle:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/oops.zip

Just pull over to the curb.

John

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In 6 more weeks my rest pulse rate will be down to 45/minute from cycle commuting 20 miles each way.

Warren Buffet has been investing billions in the energy basics lately, GE, BNSF, etc. He needs to consider bicycles. Tuesday they found me waiting for the bike shop to open and got charged FIVE DOLLARS for a shifter cable.

I should have kept the mouth shut about the knees and the wind.

Bret Cahill

You've pretty much put my thoughts on this into words.

I've noticed some op-eds and such pointing up the known problem of driver error (i.e., panic and press harder on accelerator thinking it's the brake pedal).

But here we have a guy standing on the brake with both feet and pulling the e-brake too. Something's obviously seriously wrong with the car.

Toyota has a serious mental block on this. Floor mats! How stupid can you get. Meanwhile, people die.

About 15 years ago I witnessed a car accelerate out of control in New York City, coming up Lafayette Street, cross Astor Place, and slam into a construction scaffold. The car was like a missile, the engine was absolutely screaming. One pedestrian that didn't get hit by the car was seriously injured just from standing NEAR the point of impact. I don't know if the people in the car even survived. This stuff is no joke.

If we don't hold the Toyota people's feet to the fire, shame on us.

There was a news story last night about a woman who lost control when she put her RAV4 in reverse after being involved in a minor fender-bender with a neighbor's vehicle. The SUV apparently went full throttle and slammed into her house. She is 70 years old, and it is possible that she might have panicked, but there were others who witnessed the event. Her vehicle was not part of the recall, but she had it checked by a Toyota technician. Here is the story:

I am totally in favor of having a separate black box that keeps a record of, say, the last 60 seconds of vehicle operation before a serious crash is detected. I don't mind if the police look at the data for the speedometer and my use of the accelerator, brake, steering, etc., because I don't drive like a maniac. Of course, it might be expected that one may have exceeded the speed limit or accelerated quickly trying to avoid an accident, but any information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide.

It is frustrating to hear of long-term criminals who have repeatedly gotten off on serious offenses because of technicalities. Even if proper procedures may not have been followed, as long as there was no overt intimidation or physical harm to the defendent or his property, and the evidence found was solid, then it should be admitted. If there was a breach of protocol, that should be a separate crime that might cause the investigators to be charged and punished. But the punishment for that might just be a fine or temporary suspension and reeducation about the laws that might have been broken. I'm sure most law enforcement officers would accept such risk if it would result in a perp being convicted and sentenced for a crime that was without a doubt committed.

Paul

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So, you have no problem with police searching your home, reading your email, or recording your telephone calls, all without a warrant?

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Why not just throw out the entire BoR? It just gets in the way of those nice people from the government, making it harder for them to help you.

"So, you have no problem with police searching your home, reading your email, or recording your telephone calls, all without a warrant?"

Doing so without a warrant would still be a crime. But if it turned up undeniable evidence of a crime, and was unusable only because of a minor technicality, then I don't have a problem with that.

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"Why not just throw out the entire BoR? It just gets in the way of those nice people from the government, making it harder for them to help you."

It is based on an interpretation of *unreasonable* search and seizure. Mistakes are often made, and as long as I was not physically injured by unreasonable force, or my property destroyed, then I would rather be inconvenienced and compensated if there were no evidence of guilt. Our justice system rightly errs on the side of caution, but too often perfectly good evidence is considered "tainted" and inadmissible because of some inconsequential paperwork error or other similar problem.

But I would at the same time exclude any police or governmental activity involving the so-called "War On Drugs", particularly when it concerns individual possession or use, and no violence or attempts to distribute to minors. Most of our most violent crime is directly related to these failed policies, which makes the entire drug network so wealthy and powerful. Any attempt by authorities to limit personal use and possession of something deemed to be harmful to the individual is a gross violation of personal rights, and when someone has an addiction or a strong desire for something, nothing short of a totalitarian police state can control it. If a substance or activity does not harm others, governmental authorities should have no right to interfere. At worst it is a medical issue, and anyone who commits a real crime because of such a condition should be punished and required to get treatment.

Paul

Ah, so you *do* think it's just peachy.

We are *not* discussing "inconsequential paperwork errors or other similar problems". Quote from above:

"any information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide."

...and you are defending this.

More meandering mumbo-jumbo.

with the throttle wide open the manifold vacuum is not there so there's no power assist on the brakes.

if the driver is somewhat feeble it's conceivable that they will not be able to stop the car using the brakes.

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