OT vaccines cause heart disease and are mandatory in some places

Den mandag den 29. maj 2017 kl. 18.05.22 UTC+2 skrev Jamie M:

so if vaccines keep you from dying young you might eventually die of a heart attack ...

Hi,

Close, I'd say:

"Vaccines increase your chance of dying young and increase your chance of eventually dying of a heart attack."

cheers, Jamie

The flu killed an estimated 20 to 40 million people in the epidemic of 1918. Are you trying to say that flu vaccine is more deadly?

Dan

No, read up on the risks of the diseases the vaccinations prevented. 1 in twenty kids getting measles get pneumonia.

Mumps:

Mumps can occasionally cause complications, especially in adults.

Complications include:

inflammation of the testicles (orchitis) in males who have reached puberty; rarely does this lead to fertility problems inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) inflammation of the tissue covering the brain and spinal cord (meningitis) inflammation of the ovaries (oophoritis) and/or breast tissue (mastitis) deafness

An ACCURATE assessment of risks would be beneficial, at this time the evidence I see indicates that vaccinations save far more lives than are put at risk from later complications.

It was interesting to see the research that exposure to childhood diseases can reduce risk of later complications - makes sense that stressing the body is good for health. I will be following this topic with interest.

I have been vaccinated and my ex-wife & I vaccinated our children, and they are vaccinating their child(ren).

John

Hi,

The flu vaccine is partially effective on the strains it targets and targets a subset of flu strains that are active. As far as I know it would be a toss up if the flu vaccine would prevent the dominant mutated virulant strain of flu in an epidemic. This partial prevention of acute disease shouldn't be relied upon when trying to avoid another epidemic.

History has shown that epidemics are mostly related to sanitation and nutrition, both positives for society with no long term chronic vaccine injury possible.

cheers, Jamie

Hi,

What do you think about vaccines being mandatory in some places thought? If there is evidence (like from the linked studies) that they cause heart disease or other problems.

"The risk for acute coronary events decreased significantly with increasing number of childhood contagious diseases (p=0.007)."

"Protection from infections usually suffered during the childhood before the era of MMR vaccination may predispose the individual to CHD"

cheers, Jamie

Correlation isn't causation. Any equally valid interpretation is that vaccination allows weaker people to survive to an age when they could get coronary heart disease and die of it.

heart attack ...

You would, but that is because you can't do joined up thinking.

Vaccines decrease your chance of dying young, of the infectious disease you have been vaccinated against. Because you haven't had to exercise your fit ness by surviving those childhood diseases, you get a chance to illustrate that it is marginally lower than average by dying of coronary heart disease .

a heart attack ...

So what?

Either a flu vaccine works or it doesn't. We spent a lot of money building up stocks of swine flu vaccine

More than we ended up needing, as it turned out - that particular flu never infected enough people to constitute an epidemic.

rying to avoid another epidemic.

Why not? Anybody who can't become a carrier isn't going to propagate the di sease or contribute to the spread of the epidemic. Vaccination is a lot che aper than isolation. That's exactly why vaccination is the first line of d efense against epidemic diseases - your failure to be able to understand th is very basis point is clear evidence of cognitive incompetence.

The 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic had nothing to do with sanitation or nutritio n. Long term chronic vaccine injury would be unfortunate - if it happened. There's no persuasive evidence that it does, even if there is alarmist no nsense around that half-wits like you choose to take seriously.

If it forces idiots like you to get vaccinated, and get you kids vaccinated , it has to be a good thing. Herd immunity depends on having something like 95% of the herd immune (though the exact level depends on the mechanics of contagation), and 5% of the population is crazy enough to need psychiatric care at some stage.

Then the question is how much heart disease, and by what mechanism.

Correlation isn't causation. Stronger kids survive childhood contagious dis eases, weaker kids don't. Perhaps the weaker kids were more likely to get h eart disease. Or is could be that more of vaccinated kids survived to can a ge when they could get heart disease.

That is one way of looking at it. If allowing the patient to survive long e nough to exhibit coronary heart diseases counts as "predisposition" it migh t even be true, but it's a truly rotten argument against vaccination.

Playing Russian Roulete does make it less likely that you will die of coron ary heart disease, but that doesn't make it a sensible health choice.

The study is most likely flawed for several reasons, the main one being it was not blind, the researchers actually knew the subjects. Secondly, the ri sk of CHD is a very strong function of the risk factors in the lifestyle of the individual and the history of those risk factors. Almost any kind of r isk factor can make for a 5-10 increase of risk in developing CHD, and subj ecting yourself to those risk factors has pretty much sealed your fate by a ge 40 regardless of abstinence from that point onward. In light of that kin d of extreme sensitivity, those crummy little hazard ratios on the order of 0.9 are nearly insignificant. You show me a study where the risk factors w ere strictly and scientifically controlled. I suspect the researchers were not out to discover anything, they were out to prove childhood vaccination may not be such a good thing for CHD outcomes later in life.

Hi,

Both studies show a link between vaccination and coronory heart disease.

The aim of the study from Pediatric Cardiology, University Hospital of Lund, Lund, Sweden:

"The aim of the study was to explore whether exposure to microbial agents determines the prevalence of acute coronary events."

The aim of the study from Public Health, Department of Social Medicine, Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka, Japan:

"Although it has been suggested that exposure to infections during childhood could decrease risk of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (CVD), the evidence is scarce. We investigated the association of measles and mumps with CVD."

cheers, Jamie

Extending Bill's points, what was the average life expectancy prior to the introduction of vaccines, and what is it today? We all have to die of something.

Case closed.

John

Hi,

Extending Bill's points is a flawed premise.

cheers, Jamie

All of us talk sense from time to time...

John

it was not blind, the researchers actually knew the subjects. Secondly, th e risk of CHD is a very strong function of the risk factors in the lifestyl e of the individual and the history of those risk factors. Almost any kind of risk factor can make for a 5-10 increase of risk in developing CHD, and subjecting yourself to those risk factors has pretty much sealed your fate by age 40 regardless of abstinence from that point onward. In light of that kind of extreme sensitivity, those crummy little hazard ratios on the orde r of 0.9 are nearly insignificant. You show me a study where the risk facto rs were strictly and scientifically controlled. I suspect the researchers w ere not out to discover anything, they were out to prove childhood vaccinat ion may not be such a good thing for CHD outcomes later in life.

They don't. They show a correlation. If there is any kind of link involved it's almost certainly going to be to some third factor.

My hypothesis is that the common factor is "not dying young". Those that ar en't vaccinated are more likely to die before they could develop heart dise ase, while those that are vaccinated have a better chance of surviving to a n age when they could develop coronary heart disease.

Measles and mumps are both caused by a viral agents, and are not microbial infections. About 20% of kids who get measles then develop pneumonia, which is a microbial infection, but the study wasn't fine-grained enough to pick out this kind of difference.

Having the kind of half-witted parents who skipped getting their kids vacci nated poses it own health risks. They might have been silly enough to give the kids unpasteurised milk to drink.

Whatever "extending Bill's logic" might involve, it won't be a premise (flawed or otherwise).

I think what Jamie means is that he can't follow my logic, and wants to save time by saying he disagrees with it (though he hasn't got the wit to say why).

These kinds of studies are always difficult to interpret. The sample populations necessarily exclude those who died from the complications of childhood illnesses. Vaccinations return to the population people who would otherwise have died, so when you see higher rates of heart disease in those populations, one possibility is that a predisposition to dying from childhood illnesses is causally related in some way to a predisposition to heart disease. That is, that the vaccines are not in fact causing the heart disease at all, but rather are allowing more people with a disposition towards heart disease to live long enough to suffer the effects.

Now, that may not be what's happening, but it's a reasonable possibility. Correlation does not always imply causation.

In any case, using such results to suggest avoidance of vaccines is like suggesting one not visit the doctor because one might be killed on the journey. One needs to look at the relative risks and benefits.

Sylvia.

UK is having serious epidemic problems due to lost herd immunity in the teenage cohort now going to university whose parents were spooked by the fake MMR vaccine "causes" autism claims. Last bad one in 2013:

The vaccine deniers need to be challenged.

It is an ongoing problem but has largely fallen out of the news.

Probably the latter. In the days before antibiotics and national immunisation programs these childhood diseases were killers.

There is a good case for keeping some live smallpox virus for those that insist that they do not want to be vaccinated against other nasty diseases or advocate homeopathic remedies. Survivors will be free to peddle their cranky beliefs the rest will need to be incinerated.

Eliminating polio globally is still being hampered by cranky superstitious beliefs much like those of the anti MMR bandwagon.

Trouble is that people have forgotten just how nasty the old diseases of childhood really were after a generation spent almost free of them.