OT: Utility easements

Folks,

Since I can't find much on the web, maybe someone here had this issue. Long story short the water utility wanted to fix the sewer on their side of the clean-out because it backed up too much. They said one of our trees has to go and they'd have to dig out the roots. It's the only way they said it clould be done properly so we agreed to let go of the large oak tree. BIG job, probably expensive but on their dime.

Suddenly they changed their mind, saying that the easement goes to 25ft from middle of street and the tree is 1-2ft farther in. So not on their turf. Their existing clean-out (like a demarc point) is at about 30ft. Now they say "it'll be fine" for the last few feet, they'd put in a new clean-out closer to the road, repair that section which is "the only one remianing with problems" and anything beyond that becomes ours.

That does not smell very good, I really doubt those statements. Not sure if they just want to dump a potential problem on us. Can a utility do this?

They dug out some old parcel plan records from 1967 showing a 25ft easement from road center. Our house plans show 30ft and I assume if those drawings were wrong the county would not have allowed the house to be built. Yet they contradict the 1967 county parcel plans. Is that anything I can use to make our case so the utility remains responsible all the way to the old clean-out and not just the new one they are going to put in?

I know that we need a lawyer if this ever comes down to the mat. Right now we have no sewer issues and I just want to make sure we preserve our rights if it ever comes to a head.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg
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I don't know the law where you live, but it sure sounds like they want to give you an extra 5 feet of sewer and I would think you have the right to refuse. If they are talking about working on your property, can you do anything to hold them up until this is settled? I'd park a car on the lawn.

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Rick C
Reply to
rickman

Get the lot re-surveyed.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
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Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Can't hold them up and don't really want to. The old clean-out will stay so the evidence won't be removed. I do not think that gets settled anytime soon because they were not budging when talking last time. I also took photos today.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

It's expensive out here and wouldn't help much because surveyors usually only measure the exact property lines. AFAIK they do not determine easement limits.

The thing is, regardless of where the easement limit is the utility did build the sewer to the old clean-out around 1970. So even if they made a mistake back then I believe they can't just shed the responsibility now that there's issues.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Go to your local records place and get the details covering it. Don't tell them why you need it, just that you need it, otherwise they make phone calls while your waiting befor passing out information if they suspect something that will fall back on them..

Its a common practice, the little people get the shit end of the deal.

Jamie

Reply to
M Philbrook

The guys you are talking to aren't the ones making the decision. What rights exactly do you wish to preserve? Will the new cleanout be on your property? Inside or outside the highway easement?

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Rick C
Reply to
rickman

The right to have that section of pipe repaired and cleaned by the utility at no cost to us. Because it has caused issues in the past and taking care of it usually required access from somewhere in the street.

Likely on our property within what they say is the 25ft from road center easement.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

It's a long trip but maybe I should. Although that is already where they got their information. And it contradicts what is on our property drawings that were the basis of approving construction.

But no matter what the records say the utility had built it to that old clean-out in 1970.

That's why I need some clarity what the rules really are, regardless of easement lines. For example, their water meter is way beyond any easement line and that's theirs.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg
[sewer woes]

Tell me that was intentional!

*grin*
Reply to
JW
[sewer woes II]

Et tu, Brute?

[Hoping that I'm not channeling AW]
Reply to
JW

What your house plans say about any easements means nothing. What does the county (or whatever jurisdiction does these things in that part of the world) map say about it?

If it ever "comes to a head"? Did you really say that? I'm sure it'll be cheaper to fix the pipe than hire a lawyer and sue. Remember, you're paying for their lawyer too.

Reply to
krw

Pay a sewer line clean-out company to come and do the roto-rooter thing along with a camera... they can tell you if you can expect an issue.

Probably only $100-$200... cheaper than a Californica lawyer >:-} ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

The utility says 25ft and I believe them because they gave us a sheet copy from 1967. The county blessed the 30ft on the plans though.

But regardless, _they_ placed their clean-out there and ran their own line up to it. This clean-out sits at 30ft. And a huge oak tree at 26ft which is probably why the fuss started in the first place.

Probably goes all the way back to Shakespeare:

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The way they describes the proper fix it looked like well above $5k.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

What's on your plans doesn't matter. Easements will be recorded in the (counter|city|town) recorder of deeds office. It's not a big deal to check that out.

Sure, but that doesn't matter now. What's recorded on the deed is all that matters.

Sewers come to a head, too.

As I said, cheaper than a lawyer and suit. ...and they don't care about costs so you can't bluff.

Reply to
krw

So an project approval stamp by the local government is meaningless?

We got some papers when buying the house and I vaguely remember there being some text about easements. So, another trudge to the safe at the bank. Or if not in there another car ride.

And the fact that _they_ built it does not matter? Then I should be able to rightfully claim ownership of their water meter because that's much farther into the property. Not that I'd want to.

Yeah, this one did and that's why I don't really want that part of it.

Do they have to pay mine if I prevail? Else this would be legally lopsided and unfair.

I don't plan to bluff but do not want to be unfairly treated by having a problematic section of pipe dumped into my responsibility. So far I never lost in any such disputes. But this kind is new to me.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Of course not. It _means_ you're allowed to proceed. It in no way binds them to every detail that's on the plans.

Again, your documents don't matter. The only documents that matter are what's on file at the Recorder of Deeds office (or whatever they call it in your jurisdiction). Ideally, they should be the same but there is no guarantee. Don't bother going to the bank. Go to the city/town/county office.

Nope. The only legal document is what's on file. If they differ from reality and you didn't challenge/fix it at the time, that's your problem. Mistakes happen and no one is looking out for you. That's your job.

Of course not but you missed the point. Your taxes pay their lawyer, and all other costs. It doesn't come out of their personal pocket. Your costs, and your taxes, do.

Then be prepared to spend five digits in court costs. You haven't a chance in hell unless the recorded deed shows the cleanout is on their easement. You don't have much of a chance, even if it is.

Reply to
krw

Ah, ok, so if it doesn't bind them I in turn could also feel free with some details and build a medieval castle tower on our roof :-)

Ok, will have to do that then. It's going to be a drive and has to be later in the week. I'll call the utility that some sort of opposition letter may be coming from my part. Before they start digging to put in a clean-out in a spot that dumps all the problematic part of the pipe into our laps.

We didn't own the house in 1970. So, say the easement is indeed 25ft, do they own the pipe up to that limit then? Or can they retroactively put in a clean-out right next to the road and shirk all responsibility for the rest of pipe under that easement?

It doesn't come out of taxes but out of ratepayer's pockets. And all ratepayers, not just us.

So they can just dump responsibility for their infrastructure on homeowners whenever they feel like chickening out? That does not sound fair.

Plan B is not necessarily a court of law. Way I handled stuff like that at times in the past was via the media, not courts. It had a profound effect, probably because the people way up there were elected board members and not bureaucrats with a guaranteed job security.

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Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Really? Do you think the clerk in a government office has the power to legally bind the government to an error? That you're allowed to proceed is *all* that seal means. It doesn't say everything on that piece of paper is accurate.

Do you know that it's the problematic part?

Obviously that's for the courts to decide, if you have the money to waste. IMO, yes. They only own the responsibility for that which is under the easement. That's likely still true, even with the cleanout on your property.

Again, you're missing the point. They don't care how much it costs to litigate this. They certainly know how much it's going to cost you, though. You can't bluff someone who doesn't care about money. That's the point. They'll just keep raising the pot.

By now you must be old enough to know that life isn't "fair" (whatever that means). You still haven't proven that they are "dumping" anything.

Go for it. This one, you're going to lose.

Reply to
krw

Yes. I was told so by someone from the utility. They made five attempts to shore up the line and a week ago said they'd have to sacrifice one of our big oak trees to do it right, and it'd be on their dime. We agreed.

Suddenly a few days later, in a nutshell "Oh, it's really ok up there and, by the way, we'll install a new cleanout and then everything upstream of that becomes yours".

If they own everything under the easement they at least could not dump the whole thing on us.

We'll see. Sometimes you have to do it just to stand up for your rights (and that of others). A matter of principle.

They said so.

We shall see.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

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