(OT) Surge protector opinions

it

ct.

Its all built in, save your money.

Oh please, THat is the number one subject you don't talk about around here!. You'll find out why soon enough! :)

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http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

s o

t?

UL approval only says the protector contains a device that *should* disconnect protector circuits so fast that fire does not happen. But even with UL1449 approval (a standard created 28 Aug 1985), the emergency backup protection circuit sometimes does not trigger fast enough. Scary pictures demonstrate this problem:

or

One source comes from a NC Fire Marshal who has seen this problem too often. Another is a 2007 Boston fire. All protectors were manufactured well after the1985 standard was created.

If a protector is so grossly undersized, then the emergency disconnect circuit (as required by UL1449) must disconnect fast enough to eliminate this fire risk. Effective protection means a protector is properly sized so that its MOVs do not "get blown to smithereens". Also properly sized so that the emergency disconnect circuit need not routinely blow. After all, MOV manufacturers are quite clear about what MOV failures are acceptable and what failures are unacceptable. Completely unacceptable is an MOV "blown to smithereens".

Routine is for an effective protector to earth direct lightning strikes and the protector remains functional. But when selling protectors that do not even claim to protect from those surges, then 'smithereens' is how the naive will promote those undersized protectors. After all, a surge earthed by a properly sized =91whole house=92 protector means the surge was never known to exist. But that 'not knowing' does not promote the superior 'whole house' solution.

All electronics contain internal protection. Any protection provided by a plug-in protector is made redundant by protection inside the appliance. But the type of surge that can overwhelm internal appliance protection - that surge must be earthed before it can even enter a building.

Surges energy must be dissipated somewhere. Either surge energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth. Or surge energy must be dissipated destructively inside the building. One 'whole house' protector connects surges harmlessly to earth - and remains fictional. Plug-in protectors do not AND do not claim to do that. Surge energy permitted inside a building may damage the plug-in protector (see above scary pictures) or may damage household appliances.

Bud - a sales promoter - hopes you don't understand what his citations say. Page 42 (of 61) Figure 8 in his first citation: a plug- in protector too close to appliances may earth a surge 8000 volts earthed destructively through an adjacent TV. Why? Surges seek earth ground and are best dissipated harmlessly in earth. Why do telcos connected to overhead wires all over town suffer about 100 surges during every thunderstorm - and not have damage? Telcos also don't use plug-in protectors. Telcos routinely connect a 'whole house protector from every incoming wire, short, to earth ground. Telcos know what makes the protector effective. Telcos install even better earthing electrodes. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Did Monster Cable (and Bud) forget to mention that?

Protection has always been about earthing before a surge can enter the building. That has been the standard solution for 100 years. Either one buys $2000 or $3000 of plug-in protectors (they all use the same protector circuit) OR one installs one properly sized 'whole house' protector for about $1 per appliance. The far superior solution also costs tens or 100 times less money.

Everyone's phone line already has a protector installed for free. Like the 'whole house' protector for AC electric, that telco protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Cable TV needs no protector. The cable TV company will even recommend removing that power strip protector. Why? Cable TV is connected to earth by a wire. But again, effective protection means even cable TV wire must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same earthing electrode used by AC electric and telephone and before entering the building.

What provides protection? Those who use word association as knowledge will recommend protectors. But protectors do not provide protection. Effective protectors simply connect surges to protection

- earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. Why does the telco only use protectors that connect short to earth (and for better protection, up to 50 meters distant from their switching computer)? The effective 'whole house' protector makes a short connection to earth. Then surge energy gets dissipated harmlessly in earth.

Monster Cable and other protector containing the same circuit (Belkin, APC, Tripplite) do not claim to provide protection from a type of surge that typically overwhelms protection inside appliances. Those who know protection install one 'whole house' protector from companies with far superior reputations such as Siemens, Intermatic, Polyphaser, Cutler-Hammer, Square D, Leviton, Keison, and GE. But again, the protector does not provide protection. The protector simply connects surges to what dissipated surge energy harmlessly - earth ground. Some examples of 'whole house' protectors:

Always relevant: where surge energy gets dissipated? Will that silly little power strip protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Obviously not despite claims from the sales promoter. In reality, protection means surges are dissipated in earth before entering the building. Then direct lightning strikes never 'blow to smithereens' the properly sized 'whole house' protector. We earth only one 'whole house' protector so that direct lightning strikes do not overwhelm protection already inside all appliances. And we install properly sized protectors so that the emergency backup disconnect circuit (as required by UL1449) need not be tested. And we make that 'whole house' protector even better by upgrading earthing.

Building earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code. That does not mean any household wiring (even 1940 vintage) be upgraded. That means breaker box is earthing is upgraded. How is detailed in

in a 4 Jul 2007 post that starts, " A very long description - so many reasons- of how earthing provides protection"

Monster Cable protectors (as recommended by Bud) have no earth ground; do not even claim to protect from type of surges that overwhelm protection inside appliances. Surges earthed before entering a building need not overwhelm protection inside all electronics. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why effective protectors make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. No earth ground (such as with Monster Cable type protectors) means no effective protection.

it

ct.

Why even bother. Don't your house ensurance cover lightning strikes?

As for small transients, the TV does have internal protection for that

Regards

Klaus

His usual cut and paste bullshit. Ignore this troll, and he will leave.

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There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Too late!

. w_ refuses to understand his own hanford link. It is about "some older model" power strips and says overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that required thermal disconnects. That was 1998. There is no reason to believe, from any of these links, that there is a problem with suppressors produced under the UL standard that has been in effect since

1998. None of these links even say a damaged suppressor was UL listed.

But with no valid technical arguments all w_ has are pathetic scare tactics. .

. Poor w_ is too dumb to know the difference between a creation date (1985) and a revision date (1998) for a UL standard. .

. As I wrote "a service panel suppressor is a real good idea."

What does the NIST guide say? "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." .

. w_ is so pathetic. To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association with surge protectors is I have some. .

. If poor w_ could only read and think he could discover what the IEEE guide says in this example:

- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.

- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

- In the IEEE example, a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the power service ground that is far too long. In that case the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport protector."

- w_'s favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely NO protection.

It is a lie that the plug-in suppressor at TV1 damages TV2. .

. Doesn?t need a protector? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2?4 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning." A plug-in suppressor will limit the voltage from core to shield. .

. w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

Because w_ is evangelical in his belief in earthing, he trolls google-groups to search for "surge" to spread his religious tract. This is the second time in less than a month w_ has spread his manure on this newsgroup. .

. Complete nonsense. .

. All these companies with "superior reputations" except Polyphaser and SquareD make plug-in suppressors. SquareD says for their "best" service panel suppressor "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.

Still never answered - embarrassing questions:

- Why do both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors?

- Why does the NIST guide say plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"?

- Why does SquareD say "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."

- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug?in] protector."

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

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bud--

it

ct.

You could pull the plug when there is lightning and also when you leave the house.

Chris

I was wondering how long it would take the idiot to show up once the 'S' word was uttered.

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Keith

He has to be using the 'Google Groups' "Email me when new messages about" so called feature. We should use that word in every message on all the electronics groups for a while, and drive him the rest of the way over the edge. Put it in Sig files, organization lines, or randomly in a message. :)

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you\'re crazy.

Solution is effective only if you don't sleep, never leave the house, and never take showers. Unplugging also does not protect other electronic appliances that need protection including dishwasher, furnace, clock radios, and (most important during lightning storms) smoke detectors.

Smarter is to install a solution that costs $1 per protected appliances, works constantly, protects every household appliance, requires no human intervention, and remains functional even after direct strikes. Those 'whole house' products only come from companies with highly regarded reputations.

it

There are plenty of surge protection power strips out there, and lots with 'covers up to $10000' warranties. Buy one with a good-enough warranty, use according to directions, and keep all the receipts in a safe place...

And then read the fine print on that warranty. It is written so that a warranty will never be honored. One warranty said a protector inside the house from any other manufacturer voids their warranty. Warranty says nothing about product quality. More often, the more inferior products hype the largest warranty numbers. See the auto industry for perfect examples.

Meanwhile, those tried to get that warranty honored, instead, discovered reality. Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in the newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo entitled "SONY TiVo SVR-2000"

purposes.

warranty

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Best protector is properly connected to a superior single point earth ground. Big buck warranty is spin - says nothing useful about surge protection. The warranty will get a failed surge protector replaced. Effective surge protectors remain functional even after direct lightning strikes. Why must power strip protectors, that don't even claim to provide that protection, also need a big buck warranty?