OT: So How Would You Suggest a Confirmed Windows User Convert to Linux?

It would take more than Linux to make you sound like Jan. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

network card would get confused on wake-up. Shutting down/rebooting fixed my weird wake-up problems (network drives not found, etc.), and I never used it since.

have been fixed..?

No, they haven't been fixed. I still use sleep mode but it does have it's issues. Under Vista I often find the network connection isn't working and when I ask it to diagnose the problem it offers to "automatically" get a new IP address. If I have to tell it to do that, it isn't bloody "automatic" is it?

about as long as it takes Ubuntu to boot up, so...

I use sleep mode primarily so it saves context in all my applications. I find this to be a lot better than trying to keep up to date notes on what I am doing. I just open the lid, enter my password and whatever I was working on is right there.

That comment alone says to me that you have little of value to offer this conversation.

...snip...

This it the part that should set Linux apart from Windows, but it doesn't much. For all practical purposes, Windows is just as free as Linux. Yes, I can get a free copy of Linux and put it on my Windows laptop. But the laptop came with Windows and there was no way to buy the laptop without paying any less than I did. So for all practical purposes, the Windows that came with my laptop was also free.

already,

Some of us prefer to *use* a computer rather than spend time maintaining it. That is what this thread started over. I wanted to consider Linux as a way to reduce the time I spend dealing with the machine rather than just *using* it.

and very inspiring

book shop,

that feeling

anything.

Linux .9? on it,

YOU do not want to know about.

prompt,

learn C in my job),

etc...

without that silly MS windows limitation.

Ok, so we all should spend some years just getting to the point where we are ready to make floppies to boot our PCs from?

I want to learn, just not the repair and maintenance of PCs. I used to enjoy repairing my cars/trucks. Now I'd rather just drive them.

know WHAT it is you want.

Yes, I have little interest in learning all the gory details of PCs. I want to *use* my PC, not become a slave to it.

Whoa! That is a tall claim. I've done a pretty good job of creating things up until now.

Such simple computers already exist, at least on paper. The common banking ATM machine is a good example. You are presented with a series of choices. You press the buttons to decide which choice is appropriate. For example, if you were doing a PCB, the simple manifestation of a CAD system would offer you a series of IP modules (each with a price tag). You would select which modules you want to glue together into a product. At the end, you press the "optimize" button, and it creates a PCB for you. If you don't approve of the result, you can press the "try again" button, and will shuffle the deck, producing another layout. Eventually, you are presented with a list of vendors from which you can order the PCB. There is no need for you to know anything of what is going on behind the curtain. Since all the intelligence, software, and data are resident in the "cloud", there is no administrative overhead, no updates, and no concerns of malware. You don't own the software, you rent it.

If computing is going to expand into the GUM (great unwashed masses), such simple machines will need to be available. This would be computing for those that are unable or unwilling to learn or can't afford the necessary time to learn. It's like going to a restaurant and ordering a meal from a menu. There is no need for you to learn how to cook the food, no need to learn about nutrition, no need to understand the ingredients, and no need for you to do anything more than make a decision. The computing, er... kitchen, are completely invisible to you.

Much of the efforts described under "Software as a service" and "Cloud Computing" follows this paradigm. There are other approaches, but the inevitable goal is to remove the currently necessary overhead and replace it with a service provided by a vendor. It would be exactly like a CATV set top box, or satellite TV receiver. You can't really do anything on the box that the provider doesn't specifically allow. Configuration is done remotely by the provider. Various services are offered, such as the program guide, and you simply use them without the slightest concern for how it operates. VoIP telephony is heading in that direction for no better reason that setting up the device is a confusing mess well beyond the abilities of the typical user.

You can come close to your dream of low overhead computing. There's ChromeOS (incidentally built originally on Ubuntu Linux) and Chromebooks. These are machines that are designed to run apps (formerly called programs), that generally require internet connectivity in order to operate. I've been playing with ChromeOS and I kinda like it for some things, and hate it for others. It's not ready for prime time yet, but the trend toward offloading the work to the internet will eventually make it viable.

Another manifestation of "rent the software" is Windoze Live. It's a fair attempt by Microsoft to rent MS Office applications to the user, instead of having bloatware installed on the computer. Same with Google Docs. Again, these are not quite ready for prime time, but should give you a clue as to where things are heading.

Lastly, I don't know how to say this without being offensive, so please forgive me for being rather blunt. I judge people by their willingness and abilities to learn new things, not by what they know. By announcing that you are unwilling to learn or even try something new simply because of some vague fear of turning into a true believer, obnoxious advocate, or possessor of arcane knowledge, you have failed my evaluation. We all have our limits, but they should not be self imposed.

...

Oh no. Please forgive us! We can get carried away a bit sometimes. Human s are like that.

The reason I gave Linux a try, many many years ago: well, my stockbroker s ent me a letter that someone had tried to hack into my account, and sent me a McAfee antivirus CD (laugh), along with a form I had to sign and send ba ck, saying that I promised to install it.

So, I downloaded a Live CD (Knoppix), and used it ONLY for going to the ban k. I didn't want any keystroke loggers to grab my password and email it to hackers. I used Windows for everything else, and Knoppix just for that.

But, Knoppix impressed me. Everything was so fast (probably because there wasn't some lumbering antivirus in the background), even on my older hardwa re.

So I took the next step, after a few months (years?). I installed Debian L inux (since Knoppix is based on Debian) on a small partition on my hard dri ve. Of course at boot time I still had Windows set up as default, but I co uld choose to boot from Linux.

Next thing I knew, I hardly ever went to Windows.

And life continues.

Weeell, let me tell you a story.

Ten years ago, besides changing the oil, I knew very little about cars. On e hot summer day, as I was on my way to a college class, I noticed my car w as stalling at a red light. I looked at the temperature gauge; the engine was overheating. I pulled into a gas station, popped the hood, and steam w as coming out of a crack in my radiator. O.o

I let the car cool a bit (I missed class that day), took it to the shop, an d $1,000 in repairs later, I realized, oh, I should monitor the coolant lev el every couple of weeks or so.

Sometimes we talk to our computers because no one else will listen to us!

Haha.

Have a good one!

Michael

trucks

Excellent post Jeff.

@rickman

You spent years developing your MSwin & apps expertise. Expecting a seriously unlike system to behave just like MSwin is inappropriate. Linux can give you lots of productivity once you get used to the often very different structure. But whining is not going to give that expertise, only experience will. I am very comfortable in Linux, by the same token i have been doing Linux since it was distributed on floppies. And guess what, i have been doing computers since 1971 and there were no GUI in existence. IBM had the only terminals with standardized escape code sequences and they had to be supported by terminal controllers.

?-)

I think you misunderstand me. I just don't want to waste my time learning something that is not likely to be a better choice for me. I was interested in learning enough to make an informed decision. One of the things that has put me off in the past is the attitude of the people in the community that I would rely on for support. I don't think that has changed much. It is still a community that seems to think "no pain, no gain". At least judging by the posts here.

I want to be a computer user. I may design electronic gear, but I don't want to have to know everything about how PCs work. It is a tool. I want to get my job done.

You and every other non-linux user.

Problem is you are not the one in charge of linux. And the people who influence linux (there's really nobody in charge) don't give a rat's about what real people want on their desktop. They'd rather get in your face and tell you that YOU're inferior.

Basic problem is that, once you venture into the area of patents/copyrights/content ownership, there's not much that can be done without paying someone real money. Without some centralized means of payment and enforcement, nobody is interested. The current situation of "no, we don't support that... click here to download questionably legal stuff from there...wink-wink", is insufficient today.

I don't see that ever changing.

I've found linux useful in very limited circumstances where I have a dedicated application and somebody ripped the COA sticker off the used computer. Or when I need something that can boot/run from a CD.

Most of the free "good stuff" developed for linux has been ported to windows anyway.

So what is wrong with OpenOffice?

To Miso, what is great about Libreoffice? I assume you mean it is all LO in the Linux world?

I use OpenOffice under Windows and am pretty happy with it. It doesn't do Draw as well as Visio does, but the rest is pretty good. My main problem is that I used MSO so much I got used to it. Its hard to change regardless.

Is there a reason to change from OpenOffice to LibreOffice?

Thanks for all the useful info. I find it interesting that no one has suggested any books of any sort.

I think I looked at Acronis. The one I tried seems to be EaseUS. Sooner or later I have to go back and finish that. I'm lending my netbook to a friend with a computer problem. When I get that back I may spend a little time on what you suggest. One problem I have is my Internet access is strictly remote... you know, like sneaker net. I have to take my computer to a place where I can connect it to the rest of the world. Running Linux on a desktop might be a bit difficult to get off the ground this way. lol

Libreoffice is where most of the new development is. Most of the linux distributions have switched to it too. If you are happy with openoffice fine, but if you want some of the new features going forward, you may as well switch. For example Libreoffice can import PDF. (Not that well IME, but better than nothing and perhaps it will improve). Libreoffice will likely be better supported in general, with respect to bug and compatibility fixes for example.

I think I have some Linux books dating back to Red Hat 6. They were a gift from someone. They were good for looking up a few things, but Google search is much better. Books might be good for getting an overall view of what you're getting into, but not much else.

People learn best in different ways. Some people need to read about a topic before they can function. Others need to have an instructor direct the learning experience in an orderly and linear fashion. Others find it best to watch over the shoulder of someone more familiar before attempting anything. Plenty of other learniing methods. I prefer to jump in with both feet, try everything at least once, try to deduce why things are as they appear, and make every mistake possible as early as possible to minimize later damage. I would not recommend this method for everyone.

Acronis is not perfect, but it's what I settled upon after a few major backup and restore disasters. I spent quite a bit of time evaluating various backup programs. I bought about 4 of the leading contenders, learned their deficiencies the hard way, and settled on Acronis. Note that Acronis was pure garbage prior to about 2009 and has only become usable recently. Also, their email support sucks, but their online forum works well. I haven't spent much time trying to break the various Linux backup programs. So far, so good.

Incidentally, one important lesson that cost me dearly was that you should NOT make an image backup of a live filesystem. There are various programs, including Acronis, that offer image backups while running Windoze. My experience is that it may work once or twice, but eventually, it will produce a useless backup. That's what happened to me when the "premium" Samsung hard disk in a tax prep office failed, and I found that the backup wouldn't produce a working restore.

If you want, I can prepare LiveCD's of the various Linux mutations that I mentioned and snail mail them to you. If you want to throw some cash my way, I can put them on USB dongles, which are both faster, and can be written and updated. I'll need to know if your hardware can handle 64 bit, or if I should play it safe and just send

To some users, it might be like driving a new car with a stick shift and no traction control or ABS.

Far better in the hands of an experienced driver, damn dangerous in the hands of a teenager ;-)

Why should Linux need an ambassador? It's an OS, FFS, It either does the job you want done, the way you want it done, or it doesn't. End of story.

I get "Display all 2866 possibilities?"

On a sunny day (Sat, 09 Mar 2013 09:54:47 -0800) it happened Fred Abse wrote in :

Yes, now for each of those you can try man program_name

:-)

You know, when I went to kindergarten., some time ago, we had to learn French there (normally I speak Dutch). You start by learning words and simple sentences. For Linux a few good 'words' to know are:

ls cd mkdir rm shutdown reboot ifconfig ldconfig updatedb (update the locate database) locate (find that missing libray that is on the system anyways) grep (filter output, had a nice example today) awk pipes, learn about how to use pipes: locate libjpeg | grep .so OK, I have started something, too long to write it all here. Get a book on Unix

:)

You can try "apropos"

jd@devereux:~$ apropos gpib gpib_config (1) - configure a GPIB interface board ibtest (1) - command line program to test a GPIB interface board

Etc.

ls -l I find more useful.

cd on its own returns you to your home directory, like "cd ~"

I tend to use a GUI file manager to create directories

Dangerous!!

I prefer "init 0" (need to be root). I have a separate root session going in another VT, right now.

I never do that. I always shut right down and restart.

I haven't needed to configure an interface for years.

Instinctively, after installing a shared object.

Need to be root.

In daily use.

Never felt the need.

My personal favorite: "history |grep "

I have several, going back to my days using Coherent.

Bragging? ;-)

I've been doing that for years. It can be useful, sometimes not so useful; try "apropos file", for example.