OT: China Cuts E-vehicle Subsidies

"As of June, the Chinese state subsidy for an electric car, now worth $9,830, will be cut to around $4,100. To qualify for any subsidy at all an electric vehicle must now have a specified range of at least 250 miles. Over the next three months they will also abolish local government subsidies and channel these funds into improving the country's charge-station infrastructure."

China has been accounting for about half the e-Car sales.

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Reply to
Winfield Hill
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One thing is they know is Tesla and GM have high hopes for China and sell a lot of EV product there, but those are still American companies and there's a trade war going on.

Reply to
bitrex

The 250 mile range restriction handily excludes both the current incarnation of the Model 3 standard range and the Chevy Bolt. the Nissan Leaf is getting a range update for 2019 tho it'll probably qualify.

Reply to
bitrex

Trade war? Dear Leader says tariffs are good and trade wars are easy to win. He must have won by now and all the corn and soybeans piling up are just fake news.

Reply to
trader4

They don't wanna use state money to fund purchases of the el cheapo foreign made EVs to the masses and send that money to the US who in a surprising temporary reversal of fortune does a certain class of el cheapo product better than they do. From a certain perspective it's understandable I guess, yeah people grumped about the US EV tax breaks/subsidies to consumers but they did by-and-large go to purchases of American-made products, foreign made EVs were a small fraction it mostly went to Tesla and GM.

The China subsidies will remain in place for the big-time models to keep the fat cats and Party upper ranks happy but the proletariat will have to wait.

Don't know about Tesla but a number of GM electric drive patents will expire in a couple years I believe I wouldn't be surprised to see China-clones of some of those products not too long.

Reply to
bitrex

e

How does that exclude the Bolt?

2019 Chevrolet Bolt EV Compact car 5/5Car and Driver 8.3/10US News & World Report 7.9/10Edmunds Range: 238 mi battery-only

I've never heard anything about the Bolt getting more range. In fact, I'm a bit surprised they are canceling the Volt and keeping the Bolt with the ve ry low profile they give the Bolt.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

win.

What many people don't get is that in many ways, trade is a zero sum game. China puts tarrifs on our soybeans so they buy them "somewhere else". But "somewhere else" now isn't selling to "somebody else" who now needs soybea ns. So we sell to "somebody else" instead of the Chinese.

Largely zero sum when it comes to who you choose to dance with. Crop fluct uations and demand changes are what make it not zero sum.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

that's what I mean the Bolt doesn't meet the 250 mile range specification.

The Bolt will always be a slow seller in the US to individuals but the fleet vehicle potential is huge. That's what their lil "New Roads" magazine that I get a complimentary copy of each month has it on their cover as, as an economical and reliable fleet vehicle for small businesses and livery and law enforcement and stuff like that. Also it's big in Asia particularly like South Korea.

As a sedan/hatchback Volt doesn't have much potential in the fleet role. They didn't keep it cuz they're pretty sure with the base 3 available now for 35k which is what a budget-trimline Volt with a couple options costs without the rebate, people will go for the 3 and they're probably right, they sold 300k Volts prolly everyone who really wanted one has one by now.

They could have sold 600k if they'd pushed it hard back in say,

2013-2016 but GM sucks at marketing it's been that way for a long time. and I think there are or were factions in GM corporate who didn't want it to sell and undercut their other models.

The drive-away cap cost with factoring in the tax incentive on my 2017 was $26k, why in the world would I look at other GM sedan-stuff like the Malibu or Impala in that range when the base-trim Volt at that price is just a superior car in every way

Reply to
bitrex

Only one GM sales rep I talked with at a dealer out of like, 7, could tell me anything about the Volt or Bolt that was accurate or seemed to have done any research on the cars and tried to personally push them. He was an older guy in his early 60s, older compared to most car salesmen at least.

Last I heard he made a ton of commission selling Bolts to early-adopters when it first was released; that dealership got some of the first shipments and a bunch of tech geeks and bleeding-edgers flew in to grab them, and he retired early.

Reply to
bitrex

Apparently not. Otherwise, why are farmer getting such low prices, and why are storage facilities overflowing? Farmers in other countries can increase their crop sizes. And these lost sales may not return, after the war, if China finds they like the alternate suppliers.

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Reply to
Winfield Hill

They don't "get it", because it's not true and never has been. But Trump and the trumptards believe it.

China puts tarrifs on our soybeans so they buy them "somewhere else". But "somewhere else" now isn't selling to "somebody else" who now needs soybeans. So we sell to "somebody else" instead of the Chinese.

Obviously that's BS, because the beans are piling up here. Are you not aware that Trump handed out $8 bil in welfare to farmers because of this, the consequences of his tariffs? And note that once customers turn to new sources, they may never come back. Is that the new "conservatism"? Putting farmers on welfare? How does unsold beans sitting in the Midwest reduce our trade deficits? Obviously it doesn't because we're setting record trade deficits.

Reply to
trader4

+1

Absolutely correct. What business wants to see their customers turn to another vendor? And then hope that someday they come back? How will you lure them back? Lower prices?

Also, if things are going so great with regard to exports, why did Trump hand out $8 bil in welfare to farmers in direct response to his trade war? I mean, even Trump said so. And the deficit with China just had it's worse month ever.

Reply to
trader4

hree

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'm a bit surprised they are canceling the Volt and keeping the Bolt with th e very low profile they give the Bolt.

.

Sorry, you wrote correctly, but I didn't read correctly. Yes, the standard range model 3 will also not count. But they have the Standard Range Plus: 240mi and the Mid Range: 264mi. I read they added 15 mile to the long ran ge battery with a software upgrade. If that apply the same improvement to the SR+ it may reach the 250 mile threshold.

Of course it isn't selling. GM is not promoting it at all. "Fleet sales" won't mean diddly if they continue to make such small quantities, even if t hey can double the sales they won't begin to touch the model 3 sales number s. Any other vehicle would have been dropped like a hot potato at GM. It would appear GM just wants a placeholder until they can produce a more comp etitive EV lineup.

They are dropping the Volt because they aren't interested in hybrids. Even though hybrids are useful vehicles, they are jumping on the BEV bandwagon I assume because they understand that will become the hot market in the nea r future.

That's pretty much nonsense with no basis.

You are still so in love with your Volt, but it isn't popular with the mass market. But then the real mass market isn't in love with BEVs as yet eith er. The tide is turning, it just takes more than a handful of models to re ally catch the attention of the car buying public. As more chargers are in stalled and become more visible, people will get more curious, especially i f they see cars charging at them. I get lots of questions when I'm chargin g. People are still learning and it will take some time.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Farmers in other countries could have increase3d their crop sizes before th e trade war. Commodity purchasing isn't done by establishing irreversible patterns.

As to your "surplus" and "low prices", when I look, I see soybean prices pe aked in Aug, 2012 around $17 a bushel. Since then there have been many pri ce drops even below today's prices.

As to why, "There are other factors at play, too. Chinese demand for soybea ns overall is expected to slow. Their farmers are using less protein in the ir animal feed -- which is a primary use for soybeans. Plus, African swine fever hurt their hog industry last year, so there are fewer hogs to feed."

Can you expect the Chinese to buy Soybeans when they don't need them?

Don't get all excited because someone claims the trade war is behind price changes. Commodity markets are complex.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

ote:

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But "somewhere else" now isn't selling to "somebody else" who now needs soy beans. So we sell to "somebody else" instead of the Chinese.

You point to correlations as if they were causality. They are not the same thing. China is not buying as many soybeans as they used to. They are sm art enough to not point that out, rather use the lower soybean purchasing n umbers as bargaining levers even if the numbers won't return to former leve ls after the trade conflict is resolved.

Anyone in charge of a country should have had analyses prepared on how a tr ade war might unfold. It could have foretold that soybean purchasing was g oing to drop no matter what was done. Do you think Trump consulted advisor s on likely outcomes BEFORE he decided to duke it out with the Chinese? Wh y not start with a trade war with Ethiopia to test out your weapons?

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

It wouldn't help to promote it now there are too many better competitor options, it needed to happen five years ago! It's an old design you wouldn't build an EV or plug-in hybrid in 2019 the way the Volt is built, with the battery pack down the centerline compromising interior space, for example.

The drivetrain is pretty innovative but a lot of the rest of it is old school EV-1-derived tech.

There isn't much interest in compact sedans, period.

Common knowledge among owners clubs/gm-volt forum it's no secret they treated the car like a red-headed step child and didn't really try to sell it hard.

Another generalization about Americans ya probably won't like is that Americans tend to be stodgy as hell and hate doing anything different than it's always been done unless they absolutely have to and their life depends on it.

Reply to
bitrex

Oops got confused as to what vehicle u were talking about may bad.

I still don't see many Model 3s on the road around here yet, the most common plug-in I see is the Leaf, probably.

Reply to
bitrex

No, being the narcissist that he is Trump believes he was fated by divide providence to be President and as such he doesn't need to consult on stuff like that, advisers just tell you shit you don't want to hear and what's the good in that? what a bunch of haters.

Just do it and fate will make it work out

Reply to
bitrex

And if doesn't just say it did

Reply to
bitrex

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Yeah, I guess that is understandable. Leafs (or is it Leaves?) have been s old since 2011 and the model 3s for barely a year. There are as many model S on the road as model 3s. The Leaf still has the full US tax credit but sales have been dropping. Even with the new 226 mile range it won't burn s ales records since it is still not a car you can take on trips because of t he lack of charging facilities unless you limit yourself to 200 miles a day and charging overnight.

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  Rick C. 

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

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