9v Batteries

I don't mean crap with some third-rate retailer's name on it. I mean, specifically, Energizers.

Moron, I told you it was on the datasheet, that I didn't have at home. You found the datasheet before I remembered to grab it. Sheesh!

..and still didn't accept that I wasn't pulling the number out of my ass. Double-sheesh!

If you're a real customer, ask!

Foolish. Rechargeables will never last 20 years.

The reason I was set upon this particular battery search was because the NiMHs in the current design (about to go into large-scale production - 100K units, 400K batteries/year) are failing in validation testing after "four years". The specification calls for five. The L91s appear to be a reasonable solution. Unfortunately, they're stuck with AAAs, since they're about to go into production (they will have to go with what they have in the first year, in any case). If they could change the case, there are better chemistries for the temperature range they'll be seeing. LiFePO4 would be a good rechargeable alternative but the size is a problem.

snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

There are only about three major alkaline battery makers over there and ALL of the brands come from them.

AlwaysWrong is, surprise, surprise, wrong again. It doesn't matter how many manufacturers there are, AlwaysWrong. Not all batteries are equal.

Do you know anything about anything? Seriously!

When I bought the house in 1973, it came with a rather large, inefficient, temperamental, and ugly Frigidaire 170 refrigerator. Unfortunately, parts of the kitchen were built around the fridge, which would require disassembly with a cutting torch or defenestration through a window, to remove and drag to the recyclers. I chose to leave it in place, unplugged, and use it for storing chemicals, solder paste, fireworks, batteries, bottled emergency water, and such. I monitored the inside temperature for a while and found that the thermal mass and insulation kept the temperature within about +/-5F of

65F (18C).

The Kirkland AA cells were purchased either in 2007 or 2008 at Costco. The stated shelf life on the package is 7 years. The EXIF info from the photo shows that it was taken on: DateTime - 2016:10:04 09:52:49 which is 2 years after the termination of the shelf life period in

2014. [Q] If the shelf life ended in 2014, and might possibly have 80% of its original capacity at expiration, would you expect the cells to self destruct 2 years later without being used? Perhaps the shelf life is based on the time between manufacture and self-destruction, plus a 2 year safety margin.

Reminder, the cells on the right in the photo did not have the packaging removed, and were not "used" in any manner. They leaked died in the original bubble pack.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I have. More than once and after less than 3 years.

Ok. We'll switch from 9V batteries, to flashlights, and now to your unspecified product. No problem. Probably your product will also not last 20 years.

Failing how? Accelerated life testing of the unit showing premature battery failures? Extrapolated battery life based on short term testing?

There should be someone making LiFePO4 cells in AAA (10440) packages. More: Looks like plenty to choose from. No recommendations as I haven't used any of these in AAA.

Is there room in the battery compartment for a small LiPo battery pack with the same number of cells as the current AAA battery? If it can be made to fit, it might be a usable solution.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

No, but it had better last five. Hundreds of thousands of them, in harsh conditions. NiMH has failed testing. Even with "constant" recharge, it fails the five-year test.

Certainly. It doesn't do any good to have a test that runs longer than the contract, now does it?

I can't find any manufacturers who will admit to it. Who knows what they really are.

No. Any mechanical change would be a massive problem, though if the LiFeS2 cells aren't acceptable, it'll have to be done. It'll add a year to the schedule (and it goes into full production in May).

I provide you 4 references to suppliers plus a Google search for LiFePO4 AAA cells and you can't find a manufacturer? What are your limitations? Do the batteries need to be made in USA? Local stocking distributor? Pricing? Need built in protection? I did some quick Googling and couldn't find LiFePO4 10440 AAA from American vendors, so you're stuck with imports.

If you don't know what they really are, it is easy enough to measure the terminal voltage. LiFePO4 has a lower terminal voltage than other LiIon chemistries. Maximum charged is 3.6VDC. Don't go below 2.8VDC. Here's a little on how to identify variations on the LiFePO4 chemistries for 26650 cells from different manufactories:

Good luck and happy hunting.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

IME about 3/4 of 1.5v cells are completely dead by then, but some are fine, where fine means terminal voltage is still high & works ok in appliances. Whether that really means they still have most capacity I don't know.

Re unopened 20 year old 9v batteries, I expect some will be good, but proba bly nearly all dead, as each has to have 6 good cells to work.

NT

My early 80s NiCds were mostly still find in 09. Whether current cells will last that well is a whole nother matter.

NT

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

NiCds suck. Old(er) NiCds suck WAY worse.

Shame we can't do what we used to do to vac tubes to 'rejuvenate' them.

Or like the little dessi-packs, just toss 'em in the oven and they'll be right as rain (or lack thereof).

Ebay is not a source. Yes, the batteries need tracability back to the source. Perhaps you're used to working for a garage outfit but that doesn't work in the real world.

That tells me nothing about the innards, nor does it guarantee that the battery I buy today is the same one I buy five years from now.

26650s are easy. I can get them from a number of reliable sources. AAAs, not so much.

Capacity? I somehow doubt it.

Do you need ISO 9000/9001 traceability?

Can you approve multiple vendors and take your chances until the major USA vendors get around to producing AAA 10440 LiFePO4 cells?

Can you guarantee that the process and chemistry of ANY battery vendors advanced products will never change? When LiIon was new, I was watching small changes in the design every few months as the cells matured. That's where LiFePO4 is now. You might find todays cells unchanged 5 years from now, but I doubt it. For example, if in the past, you had specified NiMH cells, only to have the superior LSD (low self discharge) cells appear, you would be stuck with using the older technology. If you really must have the battery design and construction ossified for the life of your project, you might as well specify something old and unlikely to change, such as NiMH LSD. Also, consider writing the manuals in Latin, which is known not to have changed much in 1,500 years.

Do you need to have your reliable sources supply ISO 9000/9001 certified products and paperwork?

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

They worked about as well as I expected them to runtimewise, but didn't measure the capacity to check it was still 450mAh. They were an assortment of various brands, so it wasn't a 1-off thing.

NT

No, I need manufacturing traceability - manufacturer, process, manufacturing date, lot number. All that rot.

No. Only one manufacturer allowed. Everything has to be traced back to that manufacturer and approved process. Multiple vendors will make that impossible.

The manufacturer has to guarantee that it won't change for the life of the program, without adequate notice and consent. It's part of the deal.

Only suckers believe ISO9K does something useful. No, the paperwork that's necessary will make that look like Chinese CE paperwork (that's all it is).

I bought an 8 pack of AA alkaline batteries and put them in my outdoor shed. Far too often the power goes out in that shed from power tools. I always keep a flashlight in there, on the wall. But half the time that flashlight has dead batteries. So I put that 8 pack of batteries on the wall right next to the flashlight. It was hanging there, in the store package for about 3 years. Recently I noticed the whole package was full of white powder. The batteries were junk.

Just last week I bought a brand new LED headlamp (flashlight for my head). It came with 3 AAA batteries. I turned it on when i got home, and it did not work. I opened the battery compartment and all three batteries were corroded. (Those were the "heavy duty" (not alkaline) type. Right from the store, the batteries were corroded.

There is a *lot* of money changing hands. They don't live up to their contract and forget more business.

So you were out of control. That may be OK in your market but it doesn't fly in others.

IOW, you haven't a clue.

Yes, and you have to follow the contract you sign with your customers and that requires a similar contract with your suppliers. It's not unusual at all.