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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
Folderol wrote:
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Projects of students, I read it as. The apostrophe should be after the  
"s", not before.

If it's a general point, then "teacher's" should be "teachers'" and it  
should be "teachers' spouse abuse". If a particular point, then "teacher  
abuse" and "teacher's spouse abuse".

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Not to me, they didn't

Then again, having corrected someone's grammar on usenet, I will now don  
my flameproof suit and await developments.

--  
Tciao for Now!

John.

Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On 23/06/13 19:34, John Williamson wrote:
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"Yes it does. It also constitute teacher's and teacher's spouse's abuse*.
(My wife was a high school teacher, and I was exposed to secondary
powerpoint presentations from her students' projects**.) "

*abuse of the teacher and the spouse, of the teacher.
** unless she only had one student. in which case ( ')<<1;

--  
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc?-ra-cy) ? a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.


Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On 23/06/13 19:04, Folderol wrote:
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teachers and teachers' spouses.

Unless only one teacher was involved when its teacher's spouse (unless  
he is of the church of latter day saints)
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Indeed. In the right place..

--  
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc?-ra-cy) ? a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.


Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 13:43:14 -0400, Roberto Waltman

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Apostrophes have been abolished.  Someone might cut themself on a
loose one.

;-)
--  
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
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"Power corrupts; PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. "
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon

Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 13:33:03 -0400, Roberto Waltman

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What kind of cat goes 'mrow'?
--  
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:01:48 +0100, Peter Percival wrote in

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Hi Peter,

I think the Pi's role is perhaps better described as "in schooling"
rather than "in schools".  The cost per unit makes it accessible to
pupils, both in the classroom environment and in the home.

Programming certainly needs a slot in the education system but our
future programmers will probably want to dedicate far more time to it
than the school environment can cater for.  My personal experience was
one of total obsession from the moment the BBC Micro appeared in the
classroom.  I couldn't possibly have fulfilled that obsession without
access to a machine at home.

Another consideration is that computing is becoming more and more
distributed in nature.  It's frequently not enough to have a single
development/test server.  In fact, it's quite common to want a simulated
Internet to fully test a new system.  The Pi makes this a feasible
option both in schools and the home.  Of course, the ability to do that
also exposes students to the world of networking; another bonus!

The Pi might not be a breakthrough in technology terms but, at least
conceptually, it puts real world computing within the grasp of children
of all ages, without the need for them to sit at Dad's keyboard.

Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
says...
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Right the below comments are based on my experiences with supplying and  
supporting computing related services to secondary schools, where my
partner is Head of ICT and Computer upto and icluding A levels. I have
mentored or been fake customer for several A level computing projects
(usually 100+ page reports beyond actual 'product') and this year one  
of the projects actually was on a Pi. Compared to most teachers in
ICT and computing she is ahead of the curve in how to teach newer
stuff and does not want to do things on a BBC Model B because thats
all they know.

Its classroom use is limited as unless you have a setup lab with LOCKED
down parts (to stop bits being trousered), has the ability to login into  
existing network so work can be uploaded to central points so the  
forgetful students can get to their work from anywhere, and save course
work, home work, assignments or even exam work to areas that staff can  
access easily (not by swapping SD cards).

The networks are often run and administered directly or indirectly by
third parties includine LEA, they are locked down and students have  
username access usually that works on any computer in the school for any
subject. The networks and computer systems are loosely 'specced' by  
senior members of staff usually on the basis of we need 30 beige boxes  
and what tehir support company specifies. Have seen silly setups of
class of 30 plus students where each has to do their own video editing  
on thin clients at same time does not work. I have seen excel macros
CRASH Sun thin client servers.

Upto GCSE the MAJORITY of students dont do much programming as in C,  
Python etc, plenty of Scratch, HTML and Flash and when they do it is  
rarer across ALL schools for the computers to control actual real  
hardware.

At A level in computing they have to deal with TCP/IP protocol and other
aspects some do some of this lower or more vocatioal qualifications like
Cambridge Tech.

For a class of 30+ students wasting 10-15 minutes at each end of the  
class to setup/breakdown equipment, count it out and count them back in
and sort out the few that dont start up is not realistic. Most teachers
with a 4-5 period day do not have time to set them up let alone clone
30+ SD cards.

The main use CURRENTLY for main stream schools is for showing TCP/IP on
an isolated network avoid internal IT support problems for network  
protocols and similar blocked on main network. Realistically for most
programming on school networks it is done easier for controlling  
versions of tools used, storage of their code, staff access and FASTER
on standard PCs.

The other is to use GPIO for group projects as this is not possible
on the main computers.

The main obstacle to being main stram computing resource are

1/ Senior management understanding more than a glossy flyer

2/ Rest of the teaching staff being able to think and work beyond
   Microsoft/Apple (which is a small number).

3/ IT support being able to support the product

4/ Budget for cables, hubs, SD cards, PSUs etc..

5/ Rugged enough setup with limited cables to plug in and go
   Staff dont have time for setup and checking what has been nicked

6/ Suitable setup and duplication setup for SD cards that can easily be  
   run by IT support and/or teachers for differing setups

    Headless/NOT
    VPN/SSH or not
    Samba or not
    IP addressing DHCP or fixed with autoincrement
    Expand to fill SD  
    other packages to auto install
    etc,,,

The Pi is useful in ASSISTING teaching, getting uber geeks ineterested
and some uber geeks cannot think beyond windows, not mainstream.

--  
Paul Carpenter          | snipped-for-privacy@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/ PC Services
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:28:43 +0100, Paul

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---snip---

It sounds like your school does/did a lot more than most.  My
experience is that ICT was barely more than learning Micro$oft Office
with a bit of Adobe thrown in, certainly up to GCSE level.  My eldest
son was so bored he gave it up.

Things are changing now.  Our school will be offerring a new GCSE
course, called Computing next year which is more like the old Computer
Studies/Science.  The kids will learn networking and programming (at
last).

I don't know how much influence the RPi has had but it has certainly
got people talking.  As a platform to run an IDE it is poor compared
to a desktop/laptop but it can do things they can't.
--  
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
Mark wrote:

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Do you mean that schools used to teach a decent computer course and then  
stopped doing so?  Crumbs.  Children (girls, anyway) used to learn to  
cook and now they're not.  What do our lords and masters thing education  
is for?

--  
I think I am an Elephant,
Behind another Elephant
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
Peter Percival wrote:
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Teaching them only what they need to pass the exams and do only those  
projects which count towards the GCSE results. HTH.

Teachers I've spoken to claim that they don't have time to teach  
anything else, as the curriculum is very tightly specified nowadays.  
(Read and discuss chapters 3 and 5 of this book, do not read and discuss  
chapter 4, for example.)

--  
Tciao for Now!

John.

Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:18:44 +0100, John Williamson

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Computer Studies used to be offered at O-level (I did it). More
recently ICT seems to be the only subject taught for GCSE at many
schools.  Looking at the exam boards' web site some are now offering a
'Computing' GCSE -- for example
http://www.edexcel.com/quals/gcse/gcse-2013/computer-science/Pages/default.aspx

FWIW: My kids' school does teach a bit of cookery.

I could understand that many schools would not be offering a course
like Computing.  I would guess that many teachers would not have the
expertise to teach it.  And those schools worrying about their
position in the league tables might be put off (as it is probably more
difficult than ICT).

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At KS4, yes.  At KS3, schools should have more freedom now there are
no SATs.  "Good" schools do often do more than teach just the syllabus
too.

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IME this is correct.  There is so much bureaucracy in schools nowadays
- I'm surprised that teachers get any time to teach ;-)
--  
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
Peter Percival wrote:

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I must have meant one of

    Children (girls, anyway) used to learn to cook
    and now they don't.

    Children (girls, anyway) used to be taught how
    to cook and now they're not.

--  
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Behind another Elephant
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
snipped-for-privacy@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid says...
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Not my school partners and others. Mainly secondary level in private and  
public education but same problems exist.


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Mainly due to choices of exams to maintain leaguse tables and abilities
of staff to perform them in timescales required.
  
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Yep but that one is being rushed through, dont expect it to be good
for a few years, the basics of networking 7 layer model and basic
network setup, programming will be limited.
  
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It is good for ASSISTING teaching, home play/study by kids, and projects
that control real world hardware.

--  
Paul Carpenter          | snipped-for-privacy@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/ PC Services
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
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I keep hearing this about the rpi "having poor IDEs". It runs ubuntu
Linux, dammit[1]!. You got _all_ the stuff in the repos, which stood
at 23000 applications last I looked.  

You got a good graphics engine. VERY good, actually. It feeds my ex$pensive
screen better than any laptop over HDMI at 1680x1024. It has adequate
networking, and hooks right up to the other stuff I have. With the
powered USB hub in the screen it gets power and attach some external
devices like a large USB disk very easily.

I work building a lot of ARM based, process control applitactions. So
I have a trimslice, a few phidgets, some OEM boards running freescale;  
but the rpi has become the IDE host of choice. I run ARM code, OK, but
so should any serious student; at least to get the experience of doing
something *completely* outside the wintel duopoly.

I build with svn, c, some c++, use emacs a lot, and use all the tools
in the *n*x "default IDE" all the time, from strace, tcpdump, gdb/ggdb
to logs and all the mundane stuff. There are "boxed" IDEs also, but
I don't use these. I don't run windows, except to run 4 important
applications, and then I run XP under emulation.

So, please, don't belittle this PI. It doesn't have all the cpu power
in the world, but it has reasonable performance among the process control
thingys. And it outperforms (just barely) a CRAY-1.  

-- mrr

[1] OK, Raspbian, which is about as close to ubuntu you can get without
having it officially sanctioned.

Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
wrote:

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The point is that the early model Bs and the model A have very little
memory.  This and the low-end CPU make IDEs run *very* slow.  It has
nothing to do with the availability of software.

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Again the point is to realize what the RPi is good at and what it is
not so good at.
--  
(\__/)  M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:02:25 +0100

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I used to run a Linux GUI on a 166MHz PC with 32MB RAM and 4MB
graphics quite happily, for internet/office/development work, I don't
see why the RPi's 700MHz and 256MB should struggle unless you insist on
using software that's intended to run on a modern PC.


Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
I like the RPi, but I'm sceptical about it getting much use in  
schools.

With the BBC Micro, and the others around at the time, kids and  
teachers had to learn to deal with the command line, as there wasn't  
an alternative. Now there is a massive alternative called Windows, and  
most people don't see the point of using ahything without a GUI.

Having supported computers in primary schools for some years, I've  
seen a move away from teaching ICT to "embedded ICT", meaning that the  
emphasis is on using ICT in work on other subjects. Essentially that  
translates to using Word, Excel and Powerpoint to present information.  
That's a useful skill for anyone looking for employment of course.  
Unfortunately there is very little else done.

Some schools are using Control Station, with or without the hardware.  
(It is a process control simulator using flow chart elements, and very  
child-friendly.)

One of the schools is using Scratch - or rather a parent is running  
out-of-hours sessions with it.

Other that that, just Office.

One school was very short of money when setting up the new computers,  
so I put open Office on instead of Office. The kids were fine with it,  
but the teachers struggled, because it had a slightly different user  
interface. Six months later that found the money for Office.

I did find a couple of teachers who were brave enough to learn from  
the kids. Most couldn't admit in front of the kids that there was  
something they didn't know. I found a useful tactic when something new  
was added to the system was to teach it to a class, with the teacher  
watching (and learning) without appearing to show ignorance.

25-minute lesson slots don't allow for anything that requires setting  
up.

Finally there is the cost. The schools already have computers. The  
vast majority of the monitors are VGA, so you can't just drop a pi in  
in place of the desktop. Adding a converter puts 20 on the cost, so  
pi, power unit, SD card and adapter comes to around 70 to 80. Why  
spend that, when you can run things like Python on Windows? The real  
advantage comes with controlling hardware - but that's another cost.


--  
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
snipped-for-privacy@adamshome.org.uk
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
Alan Adams wrote:
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That is the point I was trying to make.

--  
I think I am an Elephant,
Behind another Elephant
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Re: Why does the Raspberry Pi exist?
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Which is entirely missing the point of the Rpi!
my DIL works for a furniture-making company which now uses RPis to control
the painting machines.  
I use them to run webcams and control my central heating.
My son's dept at work is using 8 RPis to monitor a large server room.
All of these are "headless" - ie no display, keyboard, mouse, whatever.
Low cost, very reliable and small footprint.  

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