remotely loading a new SD image

[...]

Further possible approaches: - Use statically linked tools. Risk: you neglected to create a statically linked version of something you need if things turn out more complex than expected. - Rename the new system over the old one and delete files only present in the old one - essentially this is what an upgrade does (on a different scale). Risk: some intermediate state doesn?t work properly.

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Reply to
Richard Kettlewell
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Try sit a friend or family member behind the screen and ask them how they would go about installing a program when you have fired up aptitude.

That way I have already installed most of what I need. What is still left is the rather unfinished kind of system that constantly needs configuration changes to enable basic features I have taken for granted the past 15 years.

You should notice that I am not really talking about the lowlevel package management tools that Debian introduced and that Redhat and SuSE also have, but the higher-level interface tools that the normal user and system administrator works with.

Reply to
Rob

That is right! It looks like a DOS program if you want to hear that. But I think it is a useful way of presenting a user interface where user commands are bound to Alt+letter commands.

That is the only thing you need to know. Take this in contrast to remebering tens of Meta/Alt/Shift/Control commands to interact with a program that shows only a list. (like gnu-info or aptitude)

It probably also supports the mouse, but my terminal program doesn't. I remember I used the mouse in some programs when I still used xterm, so I know that is possible.

That is why a UI like YaST is so convenient: you use the hotkeys and you can see all the time what they are, without using a menu.

I have run a tool on the Pi that seemed to promise that it would configure everything, but I regretted that I started it. It showed an endless series of dialogs with OK/Cancel entries in them, and it was unclear if it would be safe to interrupt it. The configuration items were similar to what I would do in YaST. (configure network, DNS, mail system, printers etc)

While you were not looking, Windows switched to using .MSI packages. The installer is dead slow, but it does do more than most Linux packaging systems.

Still the same chain of dialogues that provides no overview over the process and allows only the most basic settings, for the remainder you have to edit the ifcfg- files yourself.

Reply to
Rob

*Normal* users can't install packages anyway ;)
Reply to
Guesser

I've always quite liked dselect, though I believe I'm [in] a minority.

Justin.

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Reply to
Justin C

That's not a showstopper. You should still be able to execute mv by invoking the dynamic linker directly:

/tmp/lib/ld-linux-armhf.so.3 --library-path \ /tmp/usr/lib/arm-linux-gnueabihf /tmp/bin/mv /tmp/new/* /

Disclaimer: I've only ever done things like that on x86 systems, but I assume it would work the same on ARM.

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Geoff Clare
Reply to
Geoff Clare

But the Raspberry Pi can be run with a GUI as well. I have one which does just that, although I still ended up having to do the Wi-Fi installation via the command-line as the GUI tool didn't work (unlike all versions of Windows I've run since about 2000). If your most recent experience is XP, that's approaching 13 years out of date.

If Linux Mint is so good, why wasn't it chosen for the Raspberry Pi? Perhaps it's now on the current NOOBS install, although I don't see it listed in a couple of Google searches.

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David 
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Reply to
David Taylor

because its too damned big - its a desktop environment not a stripped down OS for emebdded hardware.

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

I tried dselect and it is more usable than aptitude, but I don't like the step-by-step approach that I have seen in other tools as well.

It is better to present every option at once in a single screen and let the user decide what to do, only guided by pop-up dialogs when it is really required.

For example, when I do an "update" in YaST it automatically does the equivalent of "apt-get update", then presents the outcome of what "apt-get upgrade" shows before doing anything (what packages are candidate for upgrade).

Then it allows me to untick individual packages that I do not want to update right now, and go forward doing the actual update.

Installing new packages works the same way. Select software installation, generate a list of packages using one of the selection criteria (like search in name/description, or package groups) and then a list of packages appears just like with update. You tick the one(s) that you want to install, dependent packages are automatically ticked.

Go forward and it will do the installation. It will automatically load the updates for any package you install.

Reply to
Rob
[]

Thanks, I didn't know that. It's a pity. At least there is some sort of desktop environment for the Raspberry Pi - most of the demos I've seen (on the Internet or on TV) have been using that desktop GUI.

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David 
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Reply to
David Taylor

Why?

Much too vague.

Synaptic and aptitude are the easy GUI front ends, but all the cleverness is done by the dpkg and apt tools.

Reply to
Rob Morley

To understand how a person feels who has not used the tool before.

Read my long posting about that. No need to repeat it.

So there is little point in disussing who was first with dpkg (or rpm). It is not the topic.

Reply to
Rob

I'd never used it before this discussion. It seems pretty simple. I don't think I have a use for it though - for non-X Debian installations I use apt, for my desktop machine I use Synaptic.

Was that the one grumbling that you have to set up aliases and smart completion etc? Because I don't recall you mentioning anything very substantial.

Without the back-end tools there would be nothing for the GUI front-ends to talk to, that seems to make them pretty relevant in a discussion of the evolution of admin tools.

Reply to
Rob Morley

you probably COULD do a mint for a pi in 8GB, just. But it would run like a dog. All that GUI comes at a heavy price on GFX cycles and memory.

Mint is usable here on a laptop with 20GB of disk and 1.2GB of RAM, and Nvidia graphics, but that's as low as I would care to go.

And it assumes permanent internet access to upgrades and the like.

And doesn't run on ARM at this point.

It could, but that's some serious recompiling...

Debian is easy - its available on all processor platforms, but the downside is you get what debian have as their default ways.

You have to understand that debian is the stable multi-architecture core on which Ubuntu is built. and mint is built on ubuntu with a better (to my mind) user interface.

Along the way its gained weight and lost the multi-architecture ability....

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Ineptocracy 

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Raspbian comes with the LXDE desktop/windowing environment as standard, but given that part of the beauty of Linux is choice, I chose the window manager I use on my desktop & laptop systems which is xfce4 - that runs quite well on the Pi - in-fact the Pi is indistinguishable from my laptop in terms of appearance. It is somewhat slower though, but it runs the chromium web browser ok with a little patience.

What won't run is the big heavyweights - gnome and KDE - mostly because they now rely on a good fast processor, lots of RAM and GPU assistance - which is lacking right now.

Gordon

Reply to
Gordon Henderson

On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 19:07:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote in :

For a month or two after I lost my XP disk I ran Mint on my home workstation -- Athlon 64 X2 4200+, 3 GB RAM, Nvidia GTX 560 video -- from an 8 GB USB memory stick. It wasn't slick but it kept me on Usenet/The Web/ssh. Now I've got a 160 GB 2.5" HDD in the machine, and the performance still isn't always anything to talk about (the package updater hangs more often than not, and the mouse response is woeful[1]). Probably the machine isn't really up to modern software (I did try a 128 GB SATA 3 SSD, but it never worked properly -- the backward compatability seemed to only reach back as far as SATA II, not SATA I).

Oh, well, I should be getting a dual-Xeon server with 32 GB and a Xeon Phi coprocessor tomorrow (after a slight mix-up at the suppliers last week that saw our machine swapped in delivery with a disk-server for a high-school Oop North). Not for home, of course.

OBPi -- no I haven't got one, far too many other unfinished projects.

[1] ...and it reliably locks up, with flashing keyboard LEDs, if I try to use a Poundland Bluetooth USB dongle. ;-)
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Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________  CMS Collaboration, 
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Reply to
Ivan D. Reid

If you're logging in to the RPi from a Linux box running a graphical desktop everything you need should be already there. Just enable X11 forwarding on ssh and any time you start a GUI-equipped program on the RPi its window(s) will pop up on your desktop.

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martin@   | Martin Gregorie 
gregorie. | Essex, UK 
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Reply to
Martin Gregorie

Should have added that it may be worth looking at VNC as well, primarily because its dead easy to start its server only when you want it.

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martin@   | Martin Gregorie 
gregorie. | Essex, UK 
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Reply to
Martin Gregorie

I just recently learned about that. That is, I had to learn how to disable it since I was getting hexdump instead of less when I really wanted less. Intelligent indeed! I'm quite happy this isn't in my Debian systems.

Reply to
Anssi Saari

OK, so I too, had another try. Admittedly package-management has come to NEED an ExpertSystem, but here's inevitable resentment from old-timers losing control to a new-syntax-automaton.

Me too.

Yes, but tribalism precludes cooperation.

I'm fightened to open another canOworms. Here's a specific problem/query:- I'd like to get rPi 'on line'. `lsusb` sees the 3G-dongle. We all want to build on existing knowledge/investment. Mostly under RH & currently slak, I've used a script which calls pppd; in the 90's for the wired-modem and now for 3G-dongle.

Some time back, for DebianEtch I had to fetch/install pppd. So I looked if rPi had it: `which pppd` But then later I found that my rPi *HAS* got . So, now that you 'explained' how easy `aptitude` is, I searched

-> ...net. But I find no 'pppd'.

What am I doing wrong?

! Let me try again: OMG! there's `ipppd`; so the ES works? But `ipppd` is not recomended. What should I use to connect via G3?

Under slak: `eject ` switches it from CDROM to modem and I can use my [modified] 90's script. But I had a nervous breakdown trying to fetch & install !

If you've got a highly automated system, it's like the Soviet Union without the ability to tweek for unknown conditions.

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