Variac question

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I can't advise on the modification to connect the variac to earth ground. O ne would have to know the design of the variac to accomplish this safely, i f indeed it is a good idea at all. IMHO, I would not modify the autotransf ormer. One need to be aware of the 'upstream' power distribution network. In the states, residential customers are fed by three wire split phase dis tribution transformer that sits on a power pole or power utility box. The 1

20 VAC power is between ground and one half of the phase winding.

I would also place the isolation xfmr after the variac. Variac (short for variable autotransformer) is an interesting device in that there is no isol ated secondary winding. A portion of the primary winding serves as a secon dary. There are taps along the primary winding that allow for stepping up or down the output voltage. One can use a variac for: reforming power supply capacitors in equipment th at has been sitting idle for a number of years, testing the tolerance of el ectronic equipment/designs to under/over voltage conditions, gradually incr easing the voltage to equipment to avoid 'shock' of the components, dimming incandescent light bulbs, and testing dropout of electronic devices under low voltage conditions. We used variacs to lower the supply voltage to comp uters to prove that the machines we designed would function down to at leas t 80% of line voltage, and when a threshold was hit, the machine would grac efully shutdown in x milliseconds. It was a requirement of the system.

Isolation transformer are used a lot in servicing certain type of electroni c equipment (e.g. tube TVs, amplifier, radio transmitters, etc.). It remov es the direct path to ground of the electrical power, significantly reducin g the chance of death. Ask any service tech or engineer who has seen their scope probe or DMM probe almost vaporize when the accidentally probe a cir cuit that effectively causes a path to ground through the probe.

good luck J

Reply to
three_jeeps
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RANT WARNING:

Isolation transformers are critical for any workbench, and after good hand-tools the first thing any radio person should get... perhaps even before said tools.

Variacs, on the other hand, are either very handy diagnostic tools or worse-than-useless anchors fit only to let the magic smoke out of an otherwise salvageable radio. I am not really sure if there is an in-between other than their original function as light dimmers.

Without both current and voltage metering, they are worse-than- useless. With the proper metering, they can be very handy tools.

Myths: A variac will help reform caps (with specific reference to tube/ valve radios).

Fact: Only on those vanishingly few radios with solid-state rectifiers that pass B+ current at any voltage, and only if done over more time than one cares to consider. Bench DC supplies are best for this typically futile purpose in any case.

In the case of a tube rectifier, most of them do not start to pass DC until the filament voltage reaches between 65% and 75% of nameplate rating. If the B+ on the particular radio is say.... 350V, that means that the fir st voltage the caps-to-be-reformed would see would be something between 227 V and 263V... not exactly a soft-start.

Myth: A variac will allow one to apply voltage gently to a radio, so as to discover problems before they become fatal.

Fact: No, not at all. True, a variac does allow a radio to see the minimum amount of current to trigger its functions... an AA5 with bad filte r caps may begin to hum at 80V rather than 120V, similarly with a transformer radio. But if the caps are not so bad as to show audible hum, the variac ce ases to be useful. And a variac will *not* tell you whether a repaired radi o is OK or not.

However, if the proper meters are put on the Isovariac, then some real diagnosis can happen: An AA5 which should, by calculation draw say...

35 watts or so (0.3A), and draws 42 watts is dissipating 7 watts of heat somewhere... perhaps the output transformer. And, unless one has calibrated eyeballs, the difference of 7 watts will not show up on a dim-bulb tester.

Comes down to a current meter with fine enough increments to give meaningful information. Such a tool is useful right down the line from init ial diagnosis to testing the completed results.

End Rant. And it could have been much longer.

As to order-of-parts: I keep the Heathkit IP 5220 (this one:

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)

From what you are seeing, it is pretty clear that the Iso goes after the Va riable in this design.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
peterwieck33

le

g. If the B+ on the particular radio is say.... 350V, that means that the f irst voltage the caps-to-be-reformed would see would be something between 2

27V and 263V... not exactly a soft-start.

Not so. The trick is to meter the B+ and wind the variac up uberslowly arou nd the point when the rectifier begins to conduct. That way the rectifier p asses only tiny current and you can indeed wind the B+ up from close to not hing. BTDT. Of course there may be easier ways now.

It's true that their uses are very few nowadays. But marginally more than z ero.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote :

ound the point when the rectifier begins to conduct. That way the rectifier passes only tiny current and you can indeed wind the B+ up from close to n othing. BTDT. Of course there may be easier ways now.

zero.

Rectifiers are go/no-go devices. Variacs are not current-limiting devices. The voltage a (tube) rectifier passes will be a function of the minimum tri gger voltage on the filament as a percentage of the "correct" filament volt age x the "correct" B+ voltage. So, if the rectifier filament trigger volta ge is 4 V vs. the nominal 5 V (80%), then the passed voltage will be nomina l B+ x 0.80. There is no 'winding' up.

This is the same argument as "just a little bit pregnant". The logic is jus t as faulty.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
peterwieck33

There is a 'more correct way" to do the reforming if one wants to try. If a tube rectifier you pull that tube or tubes and install solid state rectifiers. Then pull the other tubes to prevent cathode stripping.

Most electrolytic capacitors are formed at the factory at about 10 % or so over the rated voltage. As they sit on the shelf they will degrade somewhat. It sometimes makes sense to reform even new ones if they have been on the shelf for many years. That is where a bench supply comes in handy.

I wish I could find the magazine I had around 1965 give or take a few years. In it was an automatic restorer. I think it used a bunch of neon lights, but could be wrong. It may have been Electronics Illistrated. Don't think it was Popular Electronics. Maybe Radio Electronics.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

around the point when the rectifier begins to conduct. That way the rectifi er passes only tiny current and you can indeed wind the B+ up from close to nothing. BTDT. Of course there may be easier ways now.

an zero.

valve rectifiers are not. The current they pass depends on filament tempera ture/voltage.

they are voltage controllers. The rectifier is a current controller when ru n undervolted.

rigger voltage on the filament as a percentage of the "correct" filament vo ltage x the "correct" B+ voltage. So, if the rectifier filament trigger vol tage is 4 V vs. the nominal 5 V (80%), then the passed voltage will be nomi nal B+ x 0.80. There is no 'winding' up.

I'm not at all clear about your argument, but they certainly do wind up on a variac. I've done it.

ust as faulty.

Try it some time. You'll find out what you got wrong.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

I have a large (20 amp) Sola harmonically balanced constant voltage transformer. I cut the neutral common and use a SPDT center off switch, so I can select Utility Neutral, floating (i.e. isolation) and Local Neutral (tied to the ground at the transformer.)

Following that I have a 20 amp Variac, that I can wind up from 0-132 VAC. With a 2-5-10 selectable amp meter.

Finally, a custom 4-terminal dynamic watt meter. 0-1500 watts.

What do I use it for? Very rarely. The time I used it was to test the applied voltages on some

1947 to 1959 boat anchors to see "just how much over voltage" they were at 125 vac line vs 110 vac line voltages.

Solution? Using a 5-10 amp filament transformer in the buck mode to drop the line voltage back down to 115 vac.

Do I waste my time reforming capacitors? No. And certainly NOT in customer equipment. Saving $5-20 on a repair is NOT worth a warranty repair.

Sure, I'll fix it for free, but my reputation takes a hit. "Why didn't you fix it right to begin with?" Apparently, "because I was lazy" is not an appropriate answer.

--
"I am a river to my people." 
Jeff-1.0 
WA6FWi 
http:foxsmercantile.com
Reply to
Fox's Mercantile

** But only those examples where the items have no AC supply isolation transformers - IOW they are *HOT CHASSIS* designs. All of them very old and very obsolete. Contemporary use of 1:1 isolation transformers would be for servicing devices like SMPSs.
** That is wrong.

Using an isolation transformer allows one to connect the common rail ( or any other point) of an off-line SMPS to safety ground. After which you can use a scope in the normal way to investigate various waveforms, maybe small ones like MOSFET drive signals.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

.).

ansformers - IOW they are *HOT CHASSIS* designs. All of them very old and very obsolete.

Well, they were standard & widespread in the 1990s.

vices like SMPSs.

any other point) of an off-line SMPS to safety ground. After which you can use a scope in the normal way to investigate various waveforms, maybe smal l ones like MOSFET drive signals.

One can, but they are also used to reduce shock risk.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

< and very obsolete.
** Live chassis tube TVs and radios " standard & widespread " in the 1990s ????

FYI:

The OP did NIT even mention "live chassis" so his post was wrong and so is yours.

** Biggest safety myth out.

Using an isolation transformer unnecessarily INCREASES electric shock risk.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Live chassis TVs were very common in the 90s. Live chassis radios disappeared in the 60s.

I was responding to your mention of 'hot chassis' not the OP's. What the OP mentioned is irrelevant.

The UK government certainly disagrees with you. We have used isolation transformers for decades in bathrooms to reduce shock risk. Of course you're free to explain your pov.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

One of the things you will learn about Phil is that he suffers from a conge nital fixation with the fallacy of illicit transference - meaning that what is true of the parts is true of the whole. My cat is grey, therefore all c ats are grey (apologies to Ben Franklin).

There are unique conditions in which an isolation transformer does not prev ent the risk of electric shock. Therefore they increase the risk of electri c shock.

Idiots will find a way to solve for the most idiot-proof safety measures as conceived, because they were not conceived by idiots. And if one inserts o ne's self into an electrical circuit, one will be shocked.

If you want to twist the dragon's tail, just get Phil started on newly-made multi-section can-caps.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
peterwieck33

genital fixation with the fallacy of illicit transference - meaning that wh at is true of the parts is true of the whole. My cat is grey, therefore all cats are grey (apologies to Ben Franklin).

event the risk of electric shock. Therefore they increase the risk of elect ric shock.

as conceived, because they were not conceived by idiots. And if one inserts one's self into an electrical circuit, one will be shocked.

de multi-section can-caps.

I know he's a character. Some things he understands well, but no-one gets e verything right.

I've put myself into an electrical circuit numerous times without getting s hocked.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

I've put myself into an electrical circuit numerous times without getting shocked.... that I remember.

Reply to
peterwieck33

Were you wearing a Faraday cage or chain mail armor suit?

I haven't been zapped since tubes and hi-v were displaced by lower voltage transistors. I've gotten my share of RF burns, but those don't count as getting shocked.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

....I've gotten my share of RF burns, but those

Sure they do. It's different in that you get a shock that can burn right to the bone and cauterize itself so it doesn't bleed. Got lots of those. Yep, good times.

Still get whacked mostly by power supplies that hold 400V across the PFC cap for a couple of days. Those will get your attention.

Reply to
John-Del

No. I might go & connect myself to 10,000v tonight :)

Reply to
tabbypurr

** What I wrote was that if the use of an iso tranny is not essential, you are better off not using one and taking all the usual precautions instead.

This detailed article by Rod Elliot explains why using an iso is hazardous - not that reading it will have the slightest impact on wooden heads like you or NT.

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FYI:

The use of an RCD, ELCB or other earth leakage detector ( aka safety switch) on a workbench is a safety essential.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

an article with a lot of errors & dubious assumptions, as a result of which he comes to wrong conclusions. If I get the time I'll go through it.

I fixed lots of TVs with no such 'essential'. Most were live chassis. Any sensible person would advise using one now, but essential? We just used what was available & affordable at the time.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

ou are better off not using one and taking all the usual precautions instea d.

s - not that reading it will have the slightest impact on wooden heads like you or NT.

ch) on a workbench is a safety essential.

I think the point in this thread is that one has to know what they are deal ing with before employing an isolation transformer. I read the article. IM O, the article title is an attention getting and his point is that the isol ation transformer presents a 'false sense of safety'. The assumption that most ppl will make is that one blindly needs to install an isolation xforme r in all applications and it will keep you safe. There are limitations bas ed on the circuits one is dealing with. The assertion to be safe one must "use of an RCD, ELCB or other earth leaka ge detector" is a general statement but also a bit misleading. RCDs are NOT recommended and ELCBs are essential. This article explains things quite w ell..

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lcab-engineers

The statement about live chassis 'only in TV of the 90's' is grossly incorr ect. My father owned/operated a TV/Radio sales and service shop from early 50 th rough 2000. I grew up in the shop and serviced TVs and other electronic ge ar from the 60, 70, and 80s. I can attest that the live chassis was not on ly in the 90's. I've seen it in the 70s and 80's TVs. I've also seen it i n electronic gear in the 2010s - e.g. soldering stations/hot air rework sta tions from China, as well as three voltage power supplies from China. Point is, one needs to be aware of the realities of the circuitry they are working on and dont blindly apply 'safety measures'...that doesn't mean to ignore them. It means to apply them but know what areas of 'safety' they a re meant to protect.

Reply to
three_jeeps

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