USA wiring question

Hey All, I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was about to do it I'm wondering. In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120 volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of the 240 volt power and to the neutral. Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect the lighter gauge wire. Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the correct way. Thanks, Eric

Reply to
etpm
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In a word, yes.

120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker. 120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker. A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be the simplest solution.
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"I am a river to my people." 
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Reply to
Fox's Mercantile

Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house. In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump. One single-pole breaker to lights. One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
peterwieck33

I admitt that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the neutral ?

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

Search for > how does a 240v breaker work< both sides are protected

KenW

Reply to
KenW

I have run into wells that ran the light from one side of the 240VAC, to the well casing. There was no neutral or ground wire run to the building. These were all built in the '64 and '65 time frame by the same well driller , and before there was a local building code for pump houses.

My well pump has 240 for the pump, a 120V circuit for lights and another for a small heater. These are in a nearby laundry building, since there is no door on the pump cover. There is also a digital wattmeter for the pump, to see if it is running properly.

Reply to
Michael Terrell

Thanks. I had never seen or even heard of a quad breaker. Eric

Reply to
etpm

Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do work on his pumps. Eric

Reply to
etpm

So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right? The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the lighting circuit. Eric

Reply to
etpm

absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel J

Reply to
three_jeeps

I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel. The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120 volt receptacle. Eric

Reply to
etpm

If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine do ing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub- panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single po le breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you w ill need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even thou gh they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!

Reply to
peterwieck33

Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I am not always so organized. Eric

Reply to
etpm

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They need to be separate.

Reply to
Tom Biasi

Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).

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"I am a river to my people." 
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Reply to
Fox's Mercantile

n use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, >right?

You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is pro perly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.

A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. T hey are mechanically coupled to achieve that.

There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole build ing in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF t here is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifie s as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a bo x in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you hav e to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is a nother main out there, which I think is unnecessary.

What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tande m breaker that is only one move.

One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that optio n, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am ab solved when the house burns down and guess what...

The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured d ifferently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.

The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would have sid it is code, but that is bullshit. Tell him to show you the book a nd he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. As k "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".

For any of this shit go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch the m walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably l ooking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look. He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if s hit happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay some asshole that much who doesn't know jack shit and endangers you.

Your call.

If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as lo ng as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put a nother ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.

Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI. The one in the house is grandfathered in.

Reply to
Jeff Urban

Yes. There is nothing "neutral" about a neutral. And why it is that if ther e are only three wires from the House (Main) panel to the sub panel, an add itional SEPARATE ground must be provided in the Pump House, as that third w ire is now, de-facto, the neutral.

As it happens, there is no reason not to have multiple GROUNDS within a sys tem, as long as there is one, and only one Neutral. I remember back in the day the master-electrician I worked for was a fanatic about balancing loads as closely as practical, even in a residential application. If loads are e xactly balanced, then from the Panel to the Pole, the neutral will carry no current at all. But within the residence, pretty much every neutral will c arry load. Easily demonstrated with an ammeter.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
peterwieck33

Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?

Reply to
bruce2bowser

I knew that. Ground and neutral only bonded in the main panel. When I wired my shop I brought all the grounds from the CNC and manual machines back to the main panel to avoid ground loops. The control makers stressed that ground loops are to be avoided. Eric

Reply to
etpm

At the risk of stating the obvious, because that's code. Despite what everyone else states.

It's there for protection to make sure the line voltages are referenced to ground.

Simply put, one and only one ground, and it's at the service entrance.

If you insist on putting in a second ground, such as at a well/pump house, or an amateur radio station, the grounds must remain separate.

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"I am a river to my people." 
Jeff-1.0 
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Reply to
Fox's Mercantile

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