USA wiring question

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Hey All,
   I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.  
   In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
   Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.  
   Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric

Re: USA wiring question
On 2/24/20 11:35 AM, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:
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In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
<https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG



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"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: USA wiring question
snipped-for-privacy@att.net says...
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I admitt that I do not have any idea about the code.  However if it is  
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes.  The wire going from  
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran  
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is  
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the  
neutral ?


Re: USA wiring question
On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:32:54 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
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   I have run into wells that ran the light from one side of the 240VAC, to
 the well casing. There was no neutral or ground wire run to the building.  
These were all built in the '64 and '65 time frame by the same well driller
, and before there was a local building code for pump houses.

   My well pump has 240 for the pump, a 120V circuit for lights and another
 for a small heater. These are in a nearby laundry building, since there is
 no door on the pump cover. There is also a digital wattmeter for the pump,
 to see if it is running properly.

Re: USA wiring question
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:32:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery

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Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well
house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do
work on his pumps.
Eric

Re: USA wiring question

wrote:

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Thanks. I had never seen or even heard of a quad breaker.
Eric

Re: USA wiring question
Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house.
In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump.
One single-pole breaker to lights.
One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).  

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA  

Re: USA wiring question
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:05:18 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

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So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and
then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right?
The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to
the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the
lighting circuit.
Eric

Re: USA wiring question
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n use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, >right?

You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is pro
perly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.  

A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. T
hey are mechanically coupled to achieve that.  

There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole build
ing in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF t
here is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even  
worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifie
s as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a bo
x in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there
 that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you hav
e to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is a
nother main out there, which I think is unnecessary.  

What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tande
m breaker that is only one move.  

One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used
 what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The
 backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees
 that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and  
mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is
 like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my
 hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that optio
n, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am ab
solved when the house burns down and guess what...

The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and
 it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured d
ifferently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor
 right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without  
going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.  

The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when  
it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like  
this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new
 driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it  
not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would
 have sid it is code, but that is bullshit. Tell him to show you the book a
nd he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. As
k "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".

For any of this shit go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch the
m walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably l
ooking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it  
is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers
 and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look.  
He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if s
hit happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay
 some asshole that much who doesn't know jack shit and endangers you.  

Your call.  

If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as lo
ng as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put a
nother ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do
 pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.  

Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI.
 The one in the house is grandfathered in.

Re: USA wiring question
On 2/27/20 12:44 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
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As usual, you are wrong.

You put a breaker at the source (service panel) to protect
the line running to the pump.
You are required to have a disconnect AT the pump. Another
breaker in a sub panel for the pump/well house is the
easiest way to accomplish that.

As I said previously, and using a 30 amp service to the
pump as an example.

1. 30 amp dual breaker for a 10-3 run to the pump.
2. A four slot sub panel (rated at 30 amps minimum) at the
pump.
3. A 30 amp dual breaker for the pump.
4. An additional 20 amp single for any outlets.
5. And a 15-20 Amp breaker for any lighting circuit.

If the pump motor is electrically connected to the well
casing, do NOT ground it through the ground from the service
panel. Use the service panel for the grounds on the outlet
and lighting circuits only.

It's NOT that complicated people.
Try not to make it complicated or unsafe.


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"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: USA wiring question
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Mm Hhm.  

You say what you want Means nothing.  

Re: USA wiring question
On 3/5/20 3:00 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
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I suppose it wouldn't if you have zero comprehension.


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Jeff-1.0
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Re: USA wiring question
On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:35:53 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

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Search for >  how does a 240v breaker work< both sides are protected


KenW

Re: USA wiring question
On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:
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absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse.  I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel
J

Re: USA wiring question
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:00:57 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps

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I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel.
The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on
its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub
panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120
volt receptacle.
Eric

Re: USA wiring question
If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine do
ing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-
panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single po
le breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).  

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you w
ill need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And
 it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even thou
gh they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used
 to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such  
as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions  
on-board.  

Good luck with it!

Re: USA wiring question
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:57 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

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Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I
am not always so organized.
Eric

Re: USA wiring question
On 2/26/2020 1:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They  
need to be separate.

Re: USA wiring question
On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote:
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Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground
is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).


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"I am a river to my people."
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Re: USA wiring question
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 10:20:06 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
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Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?

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