The 22 Month Eletrolytics

"Joe"

** You can expect a no-brand electro operating in an environment of 65 degrees C to fail after 16,000 hours.

The answer is to turn all such devices off at the power point.

.... Phil

Heat kills electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic life calculators:

For every 10C increase in temperature, the lifetime is cut roughly in half. If the box runs hot, the caps won't last very long, especially if they're running at the bitter edge of their voltage rating, and have a high ripple current (common in power supply filter caps).

Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte. When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20% drop in capacitance.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen dramatically.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro caps and not capacitance meters.

Eg;

..... Phil

Electrolytic caps have always been a failure point on anything switched on all the time: a few years ago replacing them in printers at fire stations was a regular task for me and my colleagues. As they were used for callouts, these printers were on 24x7x365.

This is of course made worse by capacitor plague these days:

I'm just about to replace a dodgy cap in my washing machine's control board: the machine has been showing odd behaviour for a while, and there's a 680uf 10v that is visibly bulging. The mchine isn't on all the time, but the power switch is a soft on-off, so some parts must be powerud up whenever it is plugged in. I'd say it's about 3 years old.

Failure of electrolytic caps in fairly new equipment is nothing new, and has actually become common as manufacurers try using cheaper components to attain the highest profits.

The throwaway society has been in development for decades. Every year products are made to new lower quality standards, with the intended effect of lowering everyone's expectations of any reliability or quality, IMO.

But typical shoppers just love those $30 DVD players, and can't get enough of 'em.

It seems that the counterfeit electrolyte story will never go away, as someone always has to mention it almost any time capacitors are discussed.

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in. It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate specifications, the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or replacement is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably going to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group might get into class action, but probably not many would call their elected representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200 item that fails to work in a year. Then again, the retailer or manufacturer might just say that the buyer should've bought the extended warranty.

The consumer is always the one that gets to find out how long a product will last.

-- Cheers, WB .............

They call that market research! Built in obsolescence.

100% agrrement on everything everyone has said. It's just par for the course, I'm afraid. I replace probably 5 - 10 electrolytics in switchmode power supplies every week. As others have said, it's not that there are not caps adequately rated for the job - I use them as replacements. It's just that a 105 degree low ESR cap with a 30% voltage margin, is a lot more expensive than an 80 degree bog standard type, with a 5% voltage margin, so the manufacturers use the cheapest one that will get them through the warranty period. It's a consumer driven thing really. If you want a $30 no-name Walmart DVD player, then the people who make them for Walmart, are going to have to use the cheapest components they can find. The fact that the OP's machine was a Philips, that might be considered a 'good' name, no longer holds water either. For some time now, Philips gear has not had the same quality 'hallmark' as it did here in Europe, as little as 10 years ago ...

Arfa

I started noticing a lot of El Cheapie DVD players failing

*real* quick. ALARMINGLY so! Since they were "disposable", I never thought much of it.

One day took one apart. 6.3V caps on a 10V (?) line...

Class action lawsuits don't usually amount to much -- besides a chance for some lawyer to make a tidy sum by doing nothing. Wasn't Gateway sued over one (all?) of their ($$$K) plasma sets a few years ago?

Its a different world now. 25 years ago brand names meant something and manufacturers would want to protect there reputation.

These days, much of the cheap stuff is no name junk that you would be lucky to get parts or manuals for if at all. they really don't care as long as it works out of the box. So what if the name you never heard of is tarnished? they will just get a new name and go on and sell millions at your favorite discount store and wallmart.

There may be customer expectations on lifetime, but other than the factory warranty there is no implied life expectations.

There is no money in fixing this junk unless your doing it out of your house and selling it on craigs list as a hobby.

bob

r g

e 22

or

I think you caught it early, before it had a chance to build up enough pressure to leak or bulge. But at

the experts mention that some caps go bad without ever bulging or leaking, although I've seen only one like that, in my 33-year-old Japanese TV that's needed only two caps replaced. It's connected to an RCA converter box that developed 3-4 bulging caps in less than 23 months.

Read what I wrote. I said that when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly. When the basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the rated cazapitance. I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not all of them. ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than cazapitance loss.

Yeah, yeah...

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before testing).

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" "Phil Allison"

** I did and it was misleading.

So I improved it for you.

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK the first time. ** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100% NORMAL for modern electros. ** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be doing its job long before that. ** Purely academic to even measure it.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

** Smug prick.

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia " magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a kit and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR meter".

.... Phil

Hi!

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm to the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used as a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up. One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out is due to cost and the odd defective unit.

William

-- Brought to you by an IBM PS/2 9585-0XF, "Defiant" AMD 486-133/64MB/2GB S/N 23HN457

Jeff Liebermann wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I love my DSE ESR meter.

Very useful,great price,fun to build.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the resulting hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low output. This causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an effort to restore the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails are tightly magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them all sharing the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and 5v rails can go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to various LSIs in the equipment.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily"

** Over-voltage protection is essential for devices with such SMPSs - a sacrificial zener bridging the regulated voltage will do the job for a single output supply.

Multiple output supplies need something a bit more complex that monitors a sum off all the DC outputs and reacts to any significant increase.

Many cheap and some expensive products do not have anything.

..... Phil

Ummm... thanks. It's not often that I get to engage in a debate where both sides basically agree.

Fine. Next time I reply to one of your asterisk infested rants, I'll use words with fewer syllables and shorter sentences in the vain hope that you might find them more digestible.

I'm staring at a 20 year old Motorola MSF5000 CLB SSCB controller board with 5 assorted electrolytic cazapitors. Every single one of them failed with an unusually high ESR measurement. One leaked but none bulged. I see the same thing in switchers and motherboards. Some caps also blow the rubber plug out the bottom instead of bulging the case.

Actually, you may be correct. Self-destruction and bulging just might be considered normal for "modern" electrolytic cazapitors, but not the older caps.

Correct. The high ESR (equivalent series resistance) is especially bad in cazapitors that have a high ripple current, such as in power supplies. The increased internal resistance times the current squared causes considerable self heating.

The office next to me does home energy calculations and tomography. They have a rather expensive FLIR IR camera. I've borrowed it a few times to look at boards and power supplies looking for hot spots. It's totally wonderful and easily shows hot caps, chips, etc. Some examples:

Yep. However, I'm lazy. If the ESR tester says it's bad, I usually don't bother also measuring the cazapitance. Next time I replace some caps, I'll take some measurements.

Well, ok. I'll admit that your statement is a bit clearer. Please don't let it go to your head.

Damn right. I'm also arrogant, self centered, self righteous, egotistical, and believe the world revolves around me. One has to be like that to debate anything with you.

Ummm... thanks. Actually, I lied. The front of mine says: "ESR and Low-Ohms Meter". No Dick Smith anywhere in sight. I forgot if I bought it from Dick Smith or someone else. I think it came via Canada.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" "Phil Allison"

** Fuck you.

** So the fool agrees he had to re-write his piece to cover up the earlier errors. ** 20 years old is not "modern ".

** Goody - one for me.

** Goody - another one.

** Goody - another one.

** Goody - another one.

** Goody - another one.

** Goody - yet another one.

Mr. Liebermann last seen crashing in flames over enemy lines ......

..... Phil

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and it's nearing two years of age.

There's only one other model** out there with a hard drive, by another company. and I hear it has fewer features.

This one could be better too, and they've had time to upgrade the firmware, which is possible, but haven't done so. (But it still works pretty easily and records DVDs or 160 hours on the harddrive, and can copy from one to the other.)

**Mine is made for OTA or cable. Most such things seem to be made for people with only cable or satellite, but even then I guess there aren't many models suitable for a given signal supplier.