Right to repair

This might be of interest. A farmers group is leading a movement to require manufacturers to supply service information, parts, etc. So, far, legeslation has been introduced in 6 states. Kansas, Mass, Minnesota, Nebraska, New York, and Wyoming so far. I don't know much more than what I've read about it:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Jeff Liebermann
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I think it will ultimately die out. It's a great idea, but manufacturers will say it's a safety issue or a proprietary issue.

In any case, it won't affect lower cost electronics. That will never happen.

Reply to
ohger1s

This idea has been proposed a number of times and is most often seen in rel ation to vehicles. At issue is the need to go to a dealer to get some thin gs fixed. Independent service providers don't have access to the computer diagnosis or update software and thus can not fix everything. I have seen this from both sides (I have provided service as a dealer as well as indepe ndently). Manufacturers charge service companies money for access to propr ietary information. This guarantees some level of work for that provider a t least for that manufacturer's product. If all were allowed access, then there would be little to differentiate service providers. Also, who would provide warranty service? Given what little is paid for service under warr anty, at least having access to the service information will hopefully crea te more non-warranty work.

Dan

Reply to
dansabrservices

So? Let 'em document a safety issue. Iindustrial safety is NOT a closed-book issue, it's a matter of public interest. Sponsor a reverse-engineering session on any proprietary technology (and publish everything). Customers, unlike employees, are not barred from disclosure.

The real issue, unfortunately, is that 'require to supply parts' is only possible if the company and its suppliers exist unchanged as long as the goods do. Workarounds like last-time-buy are prohibitively expensive in some states (where inventory is taxed annually).

No current production line can replicate a 30-year-old engine computer.

Reply to
whit3rd

I would disagree with your last statement.

If there is sufficient demand then some bright person will MAKE a replacement computer for the 30 year old machine. In my industry (pinball and other coin-op games) there are multiple suppliers of circuit boards and computers for pinball games as far back as the early

70s. I am working on a replacement PCB for a 1975 motherboard that used three 6530s (Rockwell) with a FPGA.

John :-#)#

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Reply to
John Robertson

If anything, it might be easier to emulate an early car computer than anything, assuming the plan is functionality not originality. The bigger problem would be the relatively low tech coil and solenoid drivers.

Reply to
ohger1s

Pinball games use lots of low-tech coils...and there are many replacement driver boards out there.

John :-#)#

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Reply to
John Robertson

I have several pieces of equipment where the manufacturer's included software licence statement *forbids* R/E and or disclosure of any contents thereof.

The only way to test that in a jurisdiction is to have deeper pockets.

Reply to
pedro

The proposed legislation would supersede that 'requirement' by making it illegal. At least, it'd be illegal within the jurisdiction of the law, but it'd be very silly outside that jurisdiction, once publication has occurred.

Reply to
whit3rd

The problem is that anything to do with the emission control system has to be certified to not alter the emissions of the car. Hmmm, maybe won't matter a lot on a 30 year old car (if it even HAD a computer). But, making after market replacement parts for any part of the emissions system has to go through a lot more than somebody making a wiper motor or a fender.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

You certainly know where to find those big cans of worms. This goes alot de eper. The fact is that you own nothing, you are just a holder in good condu ct.

When you think you buy a car, you are simply buying a title to that car. Th e actual proof of ownership is called a Manufacturer's Statement Of Origin. The state in which you live takes that, records ad then destroys it and is sues you a certificate of title or similar instrument which is nothing but a license. The last state that would issue license plates on an MSO IIRC wa s Tennessee and I am pretty sure they stopped.

The same thing applies to real estate. The Constitution says property canno t be taken without compensation, but they can take it for taxes as easily a s your Mother could take a toy away from you when you are five years old. W hy ? Because they already owned it. You pay for it, they own it just like y our car. In fact, the network of laws written from the Trading With The Ene my Act all the way to the US bankruptcy papers decades ago make it clear th at you are actually property and property cannot own property. Also realize that your 1040 form every year is an actual contract with a mandatory oath . Nothing else, a contract. That's why 80 % of the people who beat the IRS do not file. But that is a different subject.

We are on the losing ed of this, and as far as I am concerned the older the better. My next car will have no ECM at all in it. Ever see the hydraulic schematic for a THM400 transmission ? That thing is a hydraulic analog comp uter. But you can put a shift kit in it. Actually I frown o any modificatio ns to a THM400 because it is the last thing they designed right.

I do not need the internet on my phone. I do not need a user configurable d ashboard on my car or tractor or any other damn thing. They shove this shit down your throat because that is what they have. You buy it or do without.

Don't even get me started on any software EULAs. They all say the same thin g. We own everything, you o wn nothing. If our software destroys your hardw are you are out of luck. If you decompile or otherwise modify our software we can sue you and take everything we own from you. That means everything f olks.

How to fight back ? Well eventually we have to get the young into it, but d on't buy anything. The only thing they understand is money. When they see y ou fitting a custom molded housing or something on a 1964 Oliver farm tract or rather than buying the new John Deere with their easy credit terms, they might take note. And 3D printing will help in some things.

And yes, you CAN replicate a 1980s ECM for a car. The O2 sensor controls th e timing and mixture, the vacuum or MAF sensor controls the mixture and tim ing, with those priorities. As long as you can get a pulse from the cam, so metimes even just the crank, you can make any engine run. Twelve volts to t he injectors, ground the other side to fire. Predetermined values for start up until it hits 400 RPM.

John P was quite the character. Tells me, about a car that keeps killing th e battery and we were talking 1970s cars here, he says "Get you a wire cutt ers and get under the dash and cut every damn wire down there except for th e headlights". Sounds pretty flippant but that might be our last resort.

Now TVs, people are just going to have to do without them. Idiots threw out all their old CRT TVs and now are caught in a trap. And we tried. This was our life in business, and now we're dead.

We considered many options, both well monied and not. We found out that it is a losing game. We could go out and buy TVs new, exact same model number, serial numbers the same up to the last five characters and NOT ONE SINGLE PART FITS. Not even the god damn speakers !

Shopjimmy made great strides, but we were the guinea pigs. I proved one of their parts was bad and that it had exactly the same problem as the one tha t came out. It was a Tcon and it was clipping the video. The main had alrea dy been tried so it was the Tcon or the screen itself, and there is no way a screen fault would cause that symptom uniformly on the screen. So we had problems even testing the parts, even to board level. Luckily I found you a ctually could put a scope on the LVDS and got familiar with the waveforms i n a plasma TV. Bought me a couple more years in the business but in the end I was selling buggy whips.

If we could get the government to do it, and believe me Trump is the most l ikely to do it, would be to require a warranty on all goods, commensurate w ith cost. you got a $500 smartphone you want to sell here ? Four year warra nty and eight parts and supplies for the ASCs. Twenty grand car or tractor ? Twenty years. Thousand dollar plasma, six year warranty, and twelve for t he ASCs.

And, the sum total of all the parts needed to build the unit cannot exceed double the MSRP.

Bottom line, many liberals see Trump as too brash and too whatever, but in some ways he might get something done. This country has been open season on malicious companies across the world for too too long. Really, IMO that ta riff for the Mexicans should not be 20 %, it should be more like 75 %.

Offshoring of work in the US is taking advantage of echange rates and costs of living in other countries. In China, think they are living in grass hut s ? Nope. They are driving their air conditioned cars to work on roads bett er than ours and getting better heath care than we are. They EXECUTED the h ead of their FDA for what the head of the US FDA does every day. Prescripti on drugs kill more people than illegal drugs in this country, in China, SEV EN PEOPLE died and they executed the guy.

And if you live near fracking and have kidney problems, your doctor is unde r a gag order not to discuss with you how those fracking chemicals destroy your kidneys and therefore renal function. (Pennsylvania, Dr. Rodriguez) yo u didn't think they just pumped water down there now did you ? But the form ula is secret. Know why ? /because if it wasn't secret there would be a shi t ton of lawsuits against the oil companies.

And they built that piece of shit in the golf that makes sure our shrimp is nicely greased up. They build pipelines that leak all the time and give th at Native tribe up there ammunition to garner public support to shut down t hose pipelines that we desperately need. What are they making these pipelin es out of, paper mache' ? Trump should say "Have your pipelines, but one dr op of oil leaked is a million dollar fine and every gallon is a million dol lar fine. that should pretty much please everyone because their bottom line cannot absorb that and it would put them out of business.

But the bottom liner is that the government is all for business ad doesn't give a shit about us whatsoever, until election day. now we got a half nuts loose cannon in there who might get something done.

I say we make every effort to use this time wisely.

Reply to
jurb6006

Then we adopt the Jewish idea of a boycott. Let's see them bribe the government with no money. HAHAHAHAHA.

Reply to
jurb6006

Only big equipment can be repaired easily? Not with chips.

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Reply to
Mr. Man-wai Chang

Yeah, but he keeps stomping his left foot on the floor where the clutch pedal is SUPPOSED to be every time he come up to a light or stop sign. Don't ask how I know about this - 30 years of primarily driving stick.

Yup, really, how much extra would it cost to have the various panel appliques made up in the language for where the car is delivered?

Some of these stalks by the steering wheel have so many functions now, there's up-down, pull-push, press the end, turn the end, little slider switches, and on and on...

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Ummm, try running Linux! No EULA at all, you are ENCOURAGED to browse the source code. The only restriction is you can't improve it and then sell it woithout releasing the source code. The only licensed software I use anymore is an electronic CAD package and the annual tax program. Everything else I do is using open source apps under Linux.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

I are an engineer (of sorts). All my vehicles have had stick shifts since about 1970. In the past, it was because stick shifts got better gas mileage, and were cheaper. I even converted one old vehicle from automatic to manual (because the junk yard wanted less for the manual than a rebuild would have cost me for the automatic). Today, it's purely psychological and maybe a little macho. It doesn't feel like I'm driving the vehicle unless I control the gearing. Having it done automatically makes me feel more like I'm a passenger than a driver. After price, a manual transmission was a mandatory requirement for my last vehicle. I even overpaid the dealer for it as I knew they were getting scarce and difficult to find.

And yes, I have problems driving an automatic, try to shift in an automatic, and find my left foot wandering around looking for the clutch pedal. I don't know how I'll do with a self-driving car. Probably badly.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

In October I bought a brand new 2012 Mustang convertible with the stick shift. (It had 200 or so miles on it--it had got caught up in the Takata airbag mess, so the dealer couldn't sell it for ages.) Got a nice discount too--it wound up being the price of my daughter's Kia econobox. :)

Newer cars are full of surveillance devices, which I cordially dislike.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Well, adding more gear ratios and the lock-up torque converter helped the mileage a bit. Now, I have a hybrid that has a continuously variable transmission and no torque converter. They use a wet-pack clutch like on a motorcycle to do the initial start. So, it has all the advantages of a stick shift, but my family can drive it, too.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Thanks. I'm told there's little difference between the gas mileage of a stick versus an automatic. For example, my current 2001 Subaru Forester is rated at 21 mpg with either transmission. Left column is manual transmission while the right column is automatic. My Acar Android program has about 8 years of mileage records and shows an average of 22.673 mpg over a distance of 47,215 miles and 2,000.50 gallons of the cheapest regular I can find. This is a 16 year old vehicle, which does not have the benefits of the technology you mention, yet still has identical rated gas mileage for manual and automatic. I suspect the reason lies elsewhere.

Even if the gas mileage was better for an automatic, I would still prefer driving a manual transmission. I don't feel like it's driving without the stick. There's probably some symbolism there, but I'll pretend not to notice.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

He must have been glad to get rid of it after five years depreciating in storage. Congratulations.

I once bought a new 1967 Mustang (after I trashed my mother's car).

200 cid engine, 3 speed manual transmission (of course), and zero options. It was truly an economy car. At the time, I was working part time at a local Ford dealer, so I got a good deal and was later able to economically deal with the inevitable broken parts. It was the worst car I had ever owned. All the weight was over the engine. If I tried hard, I could spin the wheels in any of the 3 speeds. Traction in snow or mud was non-existent. Because the rear end was so light, the leaf springs on the rear were not very stiff. When I loaded the trunk with about 250 lbs of Motorola 40V, 80D, and 160D radios, the rear end sank. The range of adjustment for the headlights was not enough to make the light beams level again. I could go on forever complaining about the Mustang. However, that was 1967 and presumably Ford has learned a few things in the intervening 50 years.

Yep. One of the casualties in the rush towards progress is the loss of privacy. I'm told that this is now the "information age" which makes little distinction between public and private information. The loss of privacy sucks, but is survivable. Think of it like the Japanese shoji paper curtains. There's little real privacy with those, but if everyone pretends not to notice what's happening on the other side, one can get the illusion of privacy. I think that's where we're heading. Every data collecting entity knows what's happening, but as long as they don't do anything with the data, you have the illusion of privacy. When those entities abuse your information is where the problems begin. I don't believe we can stop the collection of information, but we might have a chance stopping anyone from using what it collects.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
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Jeff Liebermann

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