Practical LED illumination issues

Hi,

Motivated by the CFL thread, I'm looking for info on fabricating "light panels" for use under kitchen cabinets. Typically, low profile fluorescent fixtures are used in these places. But, they often require the addition of a molding to completely conceal their presence. This reduces the working distance between the countertop (which is fixed by the height of the "base cabinets") and the underside of the "wall cabinets" (which is fixed by the height of the ceiling!).

One amusing approach considered was to use the backlight assemblies out of LCD monitors (i.e., remove the active display and just use the CCFL's with the mechanical diffuser). While this would be an amusing approach, I don't think it practical. :< (I'm not keen on having all that high tension wiring around *water*!)

The next approach was a panel made of (white) LEDs possibly embedded in some white/opaque plastic to produce a luminous surface. This would probably lose a fair bit of light due to the diffuser.

Another approach was to just tightly pack LEDs in a linear array (similar to a fluorescent tube in mechanical design) and attach *that* to the cabinet underside.

But, I am unsure of how realistic such an approach would be. The total light available would be an issue as would the power requirements and the heat dissipation. Cost, of course, is also an issue.

Aside from empirical testing, I'm at a loss as to how to evaluate this approach without investing lots of time and/or money.

Thanks!

Reply to
D Yuniskis
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The trick is to make up your own fittings and put the ballasts elsewhere. Then all the moulding has to cover is the tube itself. Which is not going to be any larger in practice than anything which conceals the light source

- unless you're going to fit downlighters into the cupboard bottom which would cause other problems. ;-)

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

The largest component in a "laptop" inverter is the transformer, with the SM stuff then about double that in volume total. Could you not have the inverter almost ingeral to the lamp and run 12 to 20V supplies to each lamp, of course if you want dimming then some extra wiring + control

-- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on

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Reply to
N_Cook

LED 'tubes' for under-cabinet illumination, already exist, I believe. Seem to think that I've seen them in Ikea. Go take a look at their website

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

I like the idea of recycling notebook backlights, rather than tossing them.

Building one from scratch is going to be pricey, because white LEDs have not gotten really cheap. And all the ones I've seen have a bluish tinge which might be disconcerting in the kitchen.

GE used to make "stick-up" fluorescents, which could be attached with screws or double-sided tape. I don't think they're made anymore, but you might look.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

I used some led's and put the sink side inside a little circular plastic dish. It actually some kind of laboratory specimin container. Its not perfect as I had to put some black tape around it so you don't see the light. I am using a moderate level of light, and they are always on. I intend on hooking them up to battery backup, along with the under counter bathroom lights I installed. With the Cree warm lights, i get plenty of brightness using only 50 ma. I had to use 100 ma. with some Luxeons. I am only using one lamp per couple feet of coverage. I also instaled an over the counter one in the bathroom, which lights up the ceiling.

greg

Reply to
GregS

If you colocate the inverter with the CCFL "panel", then it will either have to be located *above* (i.e., behind) the panel *or* it will interrupt the light path from the tubes across the panel itself (you'd have to see how these diffusers are built to understand how that would result in a "shadow" cast normal to the panel).

Locating them above/behind the panel makes the panel thick, again. The available space under the cabinets is approx

3/4". And, the less you use, the more concealed the light source will be.

If you have to move the inverters, then you run into Code issues as > 600V requires special treatment (even though it is very low current). And, you then have to come up with a place to hide

*several* inverters -- and DC supplies -- to power each of the panels.

No, not a practical approach. But, amusing to consider! (I have a ready supply of "defective" LCD monitors)

A friend, in jest, suggested *not* removing the active displays from the displays but, instead, piping live video through them and installing stainless steel (or other highly reflective countertops) so you could watch videos *in* your countertops...

X-/

Reply to
D Yuniskis

I'll have a look. I was aware there were options like this available commercially. But, assume they will be way too expensive (based on normal rates of markup)

Reply to
D Yuniskis

FWIW, I needed to replace a bunch of very small 'wedge base' bulbs in a digital readout with white LEDs due to unavailability of the bulbs and high heat dissipation with the bulbs. I found a source of 35 'delux white' T1 LEDs with diffusers and line operated power module for $5. They should be in your stores soon, since they are called LED Christmas light srtings. The one curious thing that I found with them is that they have noticably dimmed in the year that they have been operating. The display is 'on' 100% of the time, but 90% of the time it is set very dim and only is set bright when the room lights are on. Those LEDs that are on most of the time in the display appear dimmer than those that are infrequently on. I set the 'full bright' current to be less than the LED current in the 'string'.

Neil S.

Reply to
nesesu

Agreed. However, I have seen large LED panels used for *outdoor* lighting suggesting that it is viable (one up the street lights the interior of a 15' x 15' ramada after sunset). Of course, The City paid for those so who knows what the real price was! :-/

Yes, but they are too thick. Even using a very thin/long tube (1/2") puts you at or beyond the ~3/4" recess available. A CCFP from a laptop or a (page) scanner is *nice* and thin. Maybe the solution is to just use the CCFL *tube* and omit the LCD monitor's diffuser (then the inverter could be located adjacent to the tube without fear of casting shadows into the diffuser?)

Reply to
D Yuniskis

Petri dish, no doubt ?

I think if the lamps were in a linear array -- so that the entire "light" was only 1/4" thick, 3/8" tall and as wide as the width of the cabinet -- then you could tuck it up under the front edge of the cabinet angled rearward and avoid much of the visibility issue (unless you are talking about cabinets over a penninsula whic could be visible from either front or back)

feet of

"per couple of *feet*"? Is the amount of light you get suitable as a nightlight? Or, enough to *augment* the normal work light available in the kitchen (I want the added light to be able to see things that are under the cabinets which are invariably in shadow -- from the cabinets themselves *and* your own body as you stand between the worksurface and the overhead source of regular room illumination)

But this seems like it would be more of a "nightlight" role?

Reply to
D Yuniskis

It's called a Bright Stick.

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Reply to
William Sommerwerck

I may have found just the thing you're looking for. Inexpensive LED modules, 3 LEDs per module, low current, made by OPTEK and available from Allied Electronics. They operate on 12VDC and come in various colors including cool white. I use them for landscape lighting. Here is a web page you can get all the info about them:

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Reply to
rush14

Do they make an LEd Bright Stick?

Reply to
Meat Plow

Great idea, but apparently not.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

(sigh) That was the point of my post...

Reply to
D Yuniskis

This seems to be an increasingly common problem.

Yes. But, how much light do 35 lamps give off when clustered together? I've been playing with one-off lamps trying to gauge their effectiveness and, without a focused reflector, they seem pretty dismal. Note that you use CMAS lights differently than those for general illumination. I.e., you look *at* XMAS lights so even very tiny lights that give off very little light can "look good". OTOH, you look *at* the surface that lights used for general illumination shine upon.

Sort of like architectural landscape lighting: the lights look bright but if you look at the *ground* around the lamp, you can't really *see* anything! :<

Just to clarify...

You cannabilized the store-bought strings for the individual lamps, right? And, prior to doing so, measured the current flowing through the string (presumably the lamps were wired in series?) to come up with the value that you then implemented in your "incandescent replacements"?

So, it is not that the power source to the XMAS lights may have aged. But, have you verified that your current (now dim) lamps are still seeing the same current? I assume you just used a fixed resistor in series with each?

Reply to
D Yuniskis

These look pretty cool! But, I am a bit confused as to how they are sold...

Pricing suggests that a "three lamp module" is the basic item that you are buying (~$2.50). Yet, the datasheet indicates they are sold in strings of 30 modules -- quite obviously *wired* together. So, you're looking at a minimum purchase of ~100 lamps (30x3).

I guess you are expected to "trim" the string to length (but *buy* it in a 30 module configuration)!

Reply to
D Yuniskis

Why not use some cold cathode lamps that people use for PC modding? They're the same as the CCFL in a scanner / LCD monitor / etc.. except they come in a plastic tube with a small inverter that runs on 12VDC.

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I found this one on ebay for about $10 including shipping. Just search for CCFL or Cold Cathode and you'll get a lot of hits. Different colors too.

- Mike

Reply to
Michael Kennedy

CREE warm white. You will like it, I guarantee it.

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I just bought an LED spot thats 120 vac. It too blue for my tastes. Was about $20 on Ebay.

A friend just got huge outdoor sign which has red letters. They used white LED's. They could have used red LED's an got much better coloring All they use is white, so white it is. You can get some great colors with LED's since you don't need filters and which also dim.

The city was installing LED street lights here.

greg

Reply to
GregS

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