Poxy lead-free solder (again) ...

I think the theory was more to do with them using lead acetate (sugar of lead) to sweeten their wine than of lead pipes to deliver water. It's a nice theory, but that's all it is. Empires decline for many reasons. I think about the only certainty is that they always do. Lead acetate may have played some small contributory part in the process, but the decline of the Roman Empire is pretty well documented, and there were far more significant reasons for it.

The British Empire declined for various 'modern' reasons, not the least of which were countries figuring that they could manage their affairs and positions on the world stage, better than was being done for them by us. This made them lobby for regaining their independence, and for the most part, we willingly gave them it back. As I'm sure that anyone with an interest in world affairs will attest to, the results for some of those countries, have been less than inspiring.

As to whether lead water pipes caused a problem here, I come from a generation that grew up in post-war council houses fed with lead pipes, and I can assure you that the overall intelligence level in kids back then, was a great deal higher than it is now ...

This is true, but the reason generally cited for this is that 'traditional' pewter tankards tend to be used for drinking beer, which is quite acidic at a pH of around 4.5. The story is that over time, this will react with the lead in the pewter, causing it to be ingested. This is altogether different from running pH neutral water through pure lead pipes.

And so they are now, and have been for some time under the EU WEEE directive, paid for by the equipment manufacturers. Which, as you say, makes the whole thing barking mad ...

Arfa

Michael A. Terrell wrote

Nope, its been blamed on both.

The evidence isnt that convincing tho.

The main argument against the lead acetate line is that the kids didn't drink much wine and would have been a lot more affected by the lead plumbing and the effect of lead is much more pronounced in kids for various reasons.

I've seen a magazine ad from the 1920s praising lead for its use in water-distribution plumbing.

Ok, so you would let them starve instead. At least the environment will be safe and someone else can trash their back yard. Given the choice between the two options, I don't suppose it would be of any interest to ask the street urchins if they prefer to be poisoned or starved to death?

Yeah, I saw the horror videos and news reports. Same issue as before. Lacking any other means of support, if you kill the unsafe scrap business, the workers starve. I wish I had a solution, but I don't (and government aid is not a long term solution).

Has anyone bothered to ask them?

Brussels methods are a bit excessive. They pick an area of interest, build a crisis, mount a PR campaign, and before anyone has a chance to do any research, imposes draconian regulations to solve the problem. Of course, that creates additional problems for Brussels to solve at a later date. I have yet to see an environmental regulation that does not involve some level of collateral damage. However, the consensus seems to be that this is the price of ecological progress. I generally agree, but often wonder if there's a better way.

Arfa Daily wrote

It was both. And like I said, the pipes claim is more plausible with kids.

Yes, but it was the reason for the move to lead free pewter.

Yep, and in the case of both the roman and british empires, there are other much more plausible reasons for the empire's decline.

Well, it would be more accurate to say that none last forever.

Tho china did manage much longer than most.

And there is no reason why the decline can't have been due to a combination of all of the more plausible possibilitys too.

Its far from clear that many of them weren't part of why the roman empire declined too, tho there was much less of the move away to a different physical location of the center of power seen with the decline of the roman empire.

No real equivalent of the barbarians seen in roman times, tho some might claim that moslems are just that. Pretty hard to sustain that claim tho.

There was plenty of that with the romans too.

They romans werent bankrupted by two world wars with a great depression between them tho.

That last was mostly once it became clear that trying to stop them leaving was never going to work, with both empires.

We never did see the british empire just give up on the worst of the barbarians and just wall them off and make an obscene gesture in their general direction like the romans did with those hairy legged barbarians in dresses to your north tho.

Yeah, specially in africa. Some of the denizens of the white ones particularly would claim that they left the old dart for dead tho.

That certainly explains a lot.

That's very arguable indeed.

There isnt much piped water that is in fact pH neutral.

Tends to be more alkaline than beer tho, particularly in britain.

And we have also seen a move away from the use of lead in coloring used in cooking vessels and other stuff like drinking mugs too.

Very sensibly given the perfectly viable alternatives.

William Sommerwerck wrote

Yeah, it certainly had some real advantages over the main alternative at that time, iron.

Jeff Liebermann wrote

They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.

They haven't starved to death in India for almost half a century now.

They haven't starved in India for almost half a century now.

We fixed that problem in a different way.

The solution happened quite a long time ago now.

Yes, but the green revolution was.

No one ever does, even in the first world.

That's just plain wrong on the research.

Because that isn't even possible.

There is certainly a better way than letting some suits decide what needs to be done.

ungli jigal talks about the story of four years life "Engineering Student"

subscribe for more footages.

I'm sure its a very easy decision for them - so long as you don't let them in on what horrors they're storing up for the future.

Making their dinner plates out of pewter probably didn't help - usually at least 80% tin it contained lead & antimony amongst other things.

It wasn't just Britain lost its empire, at the end of WW2 the Japs actually had to protect their former Dutch POWs from their former servants.

I seriously doubt the Romans had a minimum age limit for drinking, the froggies are fairly lax on that even in the present day.

In Francophone countries, children generally drink wine at an early age -- diluted with water. See, for example, the dinner scene at the end of the original "The Fly". Adult Greeks commonly cut wine with water, apparently to reduce the chance of intoxication.

The minimum legal age in the UK (including Scotland?) for children to consume alcohol is 5. The 18-year-old restriction is for purchasing and consumption in pubs, off licences, etc. ISTR that 14-year-olds can consume alcohol with food in restaurants.

Then why do they continue to work with obviously unsafe materials, under unsafe conditions, for about $2.40 or $5.80 per day (depending on which article below you trust)? If there were alternatives to this kind of work, why is the work still being done?

India and most of the 3rd world countries have come a long way in education and information distribution in the last 20 years. It's highly likely they would have seen the news reports on the internet, read them in the papers, or heard rumors of their inevitable demise from lead poisoning. Yet, they continue to work with the stuff. While there might be other reasons, I suspect that lack of alternative work might be the major reason.

"Ship breaking business a big hit this year" $5.80/day

"India's Shipbreakers Risk Death at $2.40 a Day as Economy Booms"

Ian Field wrote

Me too, but I doubt too many of the kids drank anything like as much of it as the adults did for various reasons.

Yes, but again, they don't drink anything like as much of it as the adults do.

Ramsman wrote

That was pretty common in Britain at one time too.

And still happens with beer, shandys etc.

There is no minimum legal age in australia. Again, the legal restriction is on purchase, not consumption.

Jeff Liebermann wrote

Because the living standards are MUCH lower than in the west.

And there is no nice tidy $/day either, the income at that level depends a hell of a lot on luck on the day etc.

Because there are no alternatives for many of them.

That's an entirely separate matter to whether they would actually starve to death if they werent allowed to collect the lead from batterys burnt on piles of batterys.

Irrelevant to that particular question of how many of them starve to death today.

Those street urchins arent even literate.

They continue to run around in the traffic begging from the cars that have to stop temporarily too.

Separate matter entirely to how many of them actually starve to death today.

That number is straight from someone's arse, we can tell from the smell.

Its also no news that shipbreaking has been big business in India for decades now.

That number is straight from someone's arse, we can tell from the smell.