OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related

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Consulting a couple of medics about this, they seem to be as much in the  
dark about this and just use what they are given.

With no hand-sanitizing gel available anywhere, use methylated spirits  
or isopropal alchohol, decanted into a small bottle , to reduce any fire  
hazard, when used in public places. My attempts at gelling meths just  
ended up with snot/slime.

Converting a one-way valve-type dust mask , with strong cords around the  
back of the head.
Cover the outer surface with micro-fibre cloth that you can spray  
coronavirus-specific disinfectant to.
To hold the cloth in place:10 mm /3/8 inch silicone sleeving, length of  
the periphery. Cut axially and staple the join, the bit of overlap  
giving just the stretch to hold in place and pull out the ruckles from  
curving the sleeving.

Converting over-the-specs type of basic plastic goggles to a closer fit.
Again the same sleeving. With a slivver of wood or something pushed  
along inside the sleeving , punch a line of holes. Then lines of hotmelt  
glue along the goggles edges, squashing the sleeving onto the glue, some  
of it splurging thru the holes for holding the silicone in place.

Any other idea?

As I was never anything to do with medical electronics, are hospitals  
likely to have a store of non-working ventilators,for parts-doning, that  
a group of volunteer retired electronic repairers could volunteer to try  
to get going again?

Ignor ethe sig, cancelled for the duration, like all the other local  
scicafs, talks series, repair cafes and similar presumably


--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
a) It is not a matter of IF, but WHEN.
b) 'Social Isolation' will slow, but not stop the spread of the virus.
c) And the point of slowing it is to reduce the stress on the healthcare in
frastructure.
d) Which will allow for better care for those who are ill.  
e) But, again, not stop the spread.  

As to hand sanitizer - alcohol concentration, whatever the fraction, must b
e at/over 60%. And it does not take much.  

As to masks, they help ONLY those who are already infected from spreading t
he disease from coughing, that is airborne droplets. Consider the size of a
 virus (smaller than a micron) and then consider exactly how a mask will sc
reen it out of the air you are breathing. Similarly, goggles.

Isolation suits are a different deal altogether, self-contained, and sealed
. Short of that, never mind.

So, social isolation, common sense, clean hands, limit unnecessary travel,  
eat well.  

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 17/03/20 15:01, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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I think you'll find it's >70% rather than 60%.

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So all the health professionals helping to treat Covid-19 are  
complaining about a shortage of masks because they don't want to infect  
patients? I don't think I've heard so much nonsense from "experts" on TV  
about use of masks. So this page is a waste of time?  
<https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks .  
I just expand its use to other situations - if you are out in the street  
and pass someone coughing, would not think you might have been better  
off wearing a mask? Anyway, the sort of mask shown in that webpage looks  
to me like a P1, and a P3 (possibly N95 in the USA?) will be much more  
effective.

You get idiotic information such as here:  
<https://www.livescience.com/face-mask-new-coronavirus.html . Quote "A  
more specialized mask, known as an N95 respirator, can protect against  
the new coronavirus, also called SARS-CoV-2. The respirator is thicker  
than a surgical mask, but neither Schaffner nor the Centers for Disease  
Prevention and Control (CDC) recommend it for public use, at least not  
at this point." Why not? "That's because, in part, it's challenging to  
put on these masks and wear them for long periods of time, he said."  
Junk, as later it's stated "Could they be of some use? Yes, but the  
effect is likely to be modest," Schaffner said." If they can be of  
*some* use, they should be used in the current situation. Anything that  
helps to cut down transmission is better than nothing.

Of course a mask won't stop a particle the size of a virus, but who said  
most particles coughed out are virus sized? In influenza, most particles  
coughed out were in the 0.35 - 10 micron size  
(<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22651099 ). Most of these would be  
caught by a decent mask.

And why do you think goggles won't help? Even ordinary glasses will help  
a little by stopping particles going directly onto the eye.  
Close-fitting goggles would be a lot better.

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If you don;t want to use any PPE, fine, but don't recommend it to others.

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No argument there, except I would use "stop" instead of "limit". If it's  
unnecessary, why do it at all?

--  

Jeff

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 18/03/2020 14:06, Jeff Layman wrote:
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One consideration is the gelling agent must reduce the alcohol content  
proportion.

Part of my mask design is the outer micro-fibre cloth , as used for only  
an hour is damp, from the disinfectant spray, which I assume is better  
at trapping aerosols than dry.
A functional note, the loop of silicone sleeving requires 4 small thin  
C-clips to reliably hold the cloth around the underlying dust mask.
I sliced up some crimp connector plastic sheathing.


--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 18/03/20 18:30, N_Cook wrote:
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I think there is some misconception about the need for it to be a gel.  
Of course, a gel stays on the hand for longer, but really even a  
non-viscous solution will do the job if you make sure you wipe all your  
hands' surfaces carefully. I make my own; see final line here:  
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer#Composition

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That sounds sensible. Anything which adds to the effectiveness of a mask  
is worthwhile.

You might also want to consider close-fitting googles (see Screwfix ones  
which hold on with an elasticated band around the back of the head - not  
one which uses ear bars).

--  

Jeff

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
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A mask helps prevent you from touching your mouth area with finger.

Greg

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
OK, Guys and Gals - time to put a few facts on the table, if you will have  
them:

a) Nothing short of total isolation will stop COVID19, and then only if tha
t total isolation extends for considerably more than the two-week incubatio
n period. Times bandied about by 'the experts' are long enough to push up a
gainst the vaccine development time-line.  

b) Social isolation, hand santizers and any other palliative measures are n
ot intended to stop the virus, but only to flatten the infection curve such
 that the health systems are able to cope with it.  

c) Nothing short of an effective virus will actually 'stop' the disease, an
d that is no less than a year away.  

d) There are anti-virals, but unlike antibiotics, they are not very effecti
ve and come with lots of baggage (side-effects).  

e) The virus is able to live for hours to weeks on ordinary clothing, ordin
ary surfaces and so forth. It is able to live as an airborne virus for a bi
t longer depending on ambient conditions. NOTE: "Weeks" is speculative, wit
h the longest absolutely proven survival being ~80 hours to-date. Please do
 not time it with a stop-watch and think that one is safe 'just because' so
me period of time went by.  

f) Which brings us to masks and goggles. Against "sneezed droplets", has be
en suggested. Said "sneezed droplets" can (and will) still get onto the wea
rer of these devices, including clothing, ears, hair, and so forth.

g) These "sneezed droplets" will still get onto shoes, surfaces remain as m
icro particles in the air, become bound to dust, and so forth.  

So, unless one undresses into a laundry bag on one outside stoop, wears san
itizer-saturated booties and gloves on the way to an immediate shower when  
home, "and so forth", those masks and goggles are about as effective as nai
ling Jell-O. Some material may remain on the board, but most of it does not
. Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, and Children of All Ages - this is  
the first time mankind has been confronted with a dangerous disease with a  
long (and silent) incubation period, a relatively high infection rate *toge
ther* with a great deal more understanding of how infections work. Every re
sponse created prior to COVID19 is instantaneously obsolete - as just a gla
nce out a window, or 5 minutes listening to the news will make clear.  

Try not to give bad advice conveying a false sense of security or effective
ness. Worst of all, if you believe it yourself and are giving it sincerely.
 Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. Learn something before opining. Pl
ease.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
Correction to c): That would be Vaccine.....

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA  

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 19/03/2020 11:20, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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Where does the doseage effect come into play?
Where a medic , despite normal PPE practices, gets infected, it seems to  
be more acute in its effect, presumably because ne/she has had multiple  
sources of infection over days and weeks.
If that is the case, then on the other end of the scale, any reduction  
of the doseage to a joe-public person rarely coming into contact with  
the virus, would be advantageous, ie reducing the doseage, perhaps  
redusing the degree of any infection.


--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:16:51 AM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
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ave them:
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 that total isolation extends for considerably more than the two-week incub
ation period. Times bandied about by 'the experts' are long enough to push  
up against the vaccine development time-line.
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re not intended to stop the virus, but only to flatten the infection curve  
such that the health systems are able to cope with it.
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, and that is no less than a year away.
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ective and come with lots of baggage (side-effects).
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rdinary surfaces and so forth. It is able to live as an airborne virus for  
a bit longer depending on ambient conditions. NOTE: "Weeks" is speculative,
 with the longest absolutely proven survival being ~80 hours to-date. Pleas
e do not time it with a stop-watch and think that one is safe 'just because
' some period of time went by.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
s been suggested. Said "sneezed droplets" can (and will) still get onto the
 wearer of these devices, including clothing, ears, hair, and so forth.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
as micro particles in the air, become bound to dust, and so forth.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
 sanitizer-saturated booties and gloves on the way to an immediate shower w
hen home, "and so forth", those masks and goggles are about as effective as
 nailing Jell-O. Some material may remain on the board, but most of it does
 not. Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, and Children of All Ages - this
 is the first time mankind has been confronted with a dangerous disease wit
h a long (and silent) incubation period, a relatively high infection rate *
together* with a great deal more understanding of how infections work. Ever
y response created prior to COVID19 is instantaneously obsolete - as just a
 glance out a window, or 5 minutes listening to the news will make clear.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
tiveness. Worst of all, if you believe it yourself and are giving it sincer
ely. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. Learn something before opining
. Please.
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Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
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I wondered the exact same thing when I first read of the Chinese doctor who
 died of Covid19 despite being young and otherwise healthy.

Others have reported the effect being like a cold or even less, so it makes
 me wonder if the level of exposure is like having a single trooper stormin
g a barricade, or thousands.

Worse, it's speculated that those that have recovered from Covid19 are not  
immune from reinfection.

Weird times.


Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 19/03/2020 12:23, John-Del wrote:
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It will be interesting to see how much the mortality rate drops, when  
antibody testing of the more general public comes in and all the minor  
cases are addid in.
I know someone in the UK who probably had "atypical" Covid19, he just  
put down to food poisoning and ordinary flu,  not the pandemic.

Mid Feb 2020 an extended period of disabling dry coughing. Because of  
the early date and no fever/temperature/tiredness or headaches , he  
dismissed it.
Also about 3 days before he'd serious diarrhoea, intense tiredness and  
nausea for a day but not actually vomiting, eating next to nothing,  put  
down to food poisoning as no other symptoms. He could not think of a  
source of such poisoning though, as totally normal food consumption.  
About 2 clear days between the "food poisoning" and the unremitting  
coughing,so assumed it was separate issues.
Now there is more detailed symptomology out there, there is such as this.


https://www.sciencealert.com/latest-research-on-covid-19-reveals-the-pattern-of-symptoms-to-watch-for
Early symptoms could also include diarrhoea

The new study also found that patients who ended up in the ICU had more  
abdominal pain and appetite loss than patients with milder coronavirus  
cases.

The researchers noted some early, "atypical" symptoms as well: They  
found that 14 patients developed diarrhoea and nausea one to two days  
before their fever or difficulty breathing set in.

This might suggest another way the virus is spreading. According to the  
study, one patient with abdominal symptoms was sent to the surgical  
department, since the symptoms didn't align with typical coronavirus cases.

That person went on to infect at least four other hospitalised patients  
? all of whom showed "atypical abdominal symptoms" as well ? and at  
least 10 healthcare workers.


--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
And then, you have this.
Where I live, I'm surrounded by fuckwits that think that since
they believe in Jesus, they're immune to this stuff.

So they refuse to do anything to prevent the spread of the
disease. Because, you know, it only affect heathens.

I hope they all get bone cancer.

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
Silly easy tip that emerged from Scottish Gov TV piece today.
Have a bottle of sanitizer , or as that is Scotch Mist around here, a  
small bottle of methylated/denatured spirit , hidden but easy access  
near the front door but on the outside of yur house. Everyone who enters  
uses some on their hands before touching the door and entering.




--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 19/03/20 11:20, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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Facts? Let's have some links to what you are stating. Surely that's not  
too much to ask.
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Even total isolation won't stop COVID-19 if there are asymptomatic  
carriers. Unless, of course, you are proposing we live out the rest of  
our time as hermits. So your argument is nonsense as well as spurious.  
See my reply to (c).

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I suppose a posting full of junk will have one correct statement in it.

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Bullshit. There are many compounds, already used as medicinal agents in  
other conditions, which in early testing appear to have antiviral  
efficacy against coronavirus. It's about time medical science grabbed  
the bull by the horns and started throwing every compound we have  
against viruses which have no vaccine, while we try to develop one.  
Don't forget that there is no usefully effective vaccine against HIV,  
but the virus has been rendered much less of a threat by a mixture of  
antiviral chemicals. We really should be doing this with new viruses  
which appear out of the blue, and perhaps with all viruses which might  
be considered a threat to human health in future. A vaccine is a year  
away; we should therefore try anything which can treat this virus while  
we are waiting for it.

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See above. If you are dying from Covid-19, side-effects are the least of  
your worries. And how do you know they are "not very effective" if they  
have yet to be tested in a properly run trial?

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Weeks? Stop spreading FUD. "New coronavirus stable for hours on  
surfaces"  
<https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/new-coronavirus-stable-hours-surfaces
At worse, it was a few days:
"The scientists found that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus  
2 (SARS-CoV-2) was detectable in aerosols for up to three hours, up to  
four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three  
days on plastic and stainless steel."

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If you are wearing a mask and cough, most of the particles will be  
caught by the mask. If you have no mask, see comment under (g) to get an  
idea of how many particles could be spread. As I pointed out in my first  
reply, particles of the size in (g) will get caught by a good mask.  
People need to be shown how to use a decent (N95) mask, although  
anything is better than nothing at helping stop spreading particles.

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We are talking about coughing, not sneezing, with COVID-19. There  
appears to be some difference between them in dissemination of droplets:
"Published data have suggested that sneezing may produce as many as 40  
000 droplets between 0.5?12 ?m in diameter  that may be expelled at  
speeds up to 100 m/s, whereas coughing may produce up to 3000 droplet  
nuclei, about the same number as talking for five minutes. Despite the  
variety in size, large droplets comprise most of the total volume of  
expelled respiratory droplets. Further data on the behaviour of droplet  
dispersion in naturally generated aerosols are needed."
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143281//

Note: "Despite the variety in size, *large droplets* (my emphasis)  
comprise most of the total volume of expelled respiratory droplets."

I could not find a reasonable reference to the time expelled particles  
stay suspended in air.

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Nonsense. A typical flippant response from a troll. I've provided a link  
to an good source on the use of masks (WHO)

Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, and Children of All Ages - this is  
the first time mankind has been confronted with a dangerous disease with  
a long (and silent) incubation period, a relatively high infection rate  
*together* with a great deal more understanding of how infections work.  
Every response created prior to COVID19 is instantaneously obsolete - as  
just a glance out a window, or 5 minutes listening to the news will make  
clear

More flippant trolling for a very serious subject.

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You should try following your own advice, troll. I have provided  
references from recognised sources. Where are yours?

--  

Jeff

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On Thursday, 19 March 2020 11:20:32 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com  wrote:

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the first time mankind has been confronted with a dangerous disease with a  
long (and silent) incubation period, a relatively high infection rate *toge
ther* with a great deal more understanding of how infections work. Every re
sponse created prior to COVID19 is instantaneously obsolete  

you actually think no-one planned for a pandemic for which we have no medic
al cure? C'mon.

Re: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
wrote:

<snip>
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Check out 3D printing of face masks.

These are design files developed by health care  
professionals, to include eye shields.

Cooperative computing at its finest.

RL

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On 17/03/2020 11:57, N_Cook wrote:
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from someone in the medical world

The local hospital has a very large medical electronics department who  
keep all the
kit running with specialist engineers in various modalities.  In the
anaesthetics department they have a museum/store of old kit which
includes anaesthetic and ICU variants of ventilator.  I would suspect that
equipment is being serviced as we speak.  In the past, excesses of
redundant equipment like this would go to 'the Third World' and vets.

So an Emergency Powers Act government requisition of all large-animal  
ventillators from vets would make more sense than building new from a  
currently next to zero manufacturing base, a concept put out to the UK  
media.

--  
Monthly public talks on science topics, Hampshire , England
<http://diverse.4mg.com/scicaf.htm

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On Tuesday, March 17, 2020 at 12:46:46 PM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
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t
y
t


   I doubt that obsolete equipment will be allowed to be put back into serv
ice. Once the OEM stops supporting it, They cant be insured. Unless the UK  
system is extremely shoddy, they will not allow it to be used anywhere othe
r than on a movie or TV sound stage. I have personally scraped thousands of
 pieces of medical electronics that all had a 1/4" hole drilled through the
 case and the man PC board. It is a process called 'Certified Destruction'.


Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On Tuesday, March 17, 2020 at 12:46:46 PM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
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t
y

Two doors down from my office was a Medical Maintenance shop that served tw
o major acute care hospitals, Hahnemann University Hospital, in which basem
ent it was, and St. Christopher's Hospital for Children that sent all its e
quipment over for servicing. Hahnemann is now closed, and the shop moved ov
er to St. Chris. As Michael suggests, obsolete stuff was obsolete stuff. It
 would either be sold to 3rd-world nations for a nominal sum (typically, $1
.00 per container load) or sent to a crushing yard with a paper-trail. Eith
er method got it 'off the books' for insurance purposes.  

I am in an interesting position. Drexel still has a medical school (on hiat
us) that is my client, but the hospital is largely a ghost town - and COVID
19 is not changing that. I am on orders from my company and owner to work f
rom home when at all possible - not always the case. But, I have access to  
hand-sanitzer in bulk, toilet paper in bulk, and whatever sorts of other ap
paratus I might want. But, common sense, clean hands and no hugging strange
rs about covers it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Re: OT: Covid-19 personal protection ideas, and related
On Tuesday, March 17, 2020 at 3:48:29 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
 and no hugging strangers about covers it.
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That pretty much puts the kibosh on lap dances...




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