Just curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer

But unlike the rest of us here, you're like a leaky toilet that just keeps going on and on.

--
"I am a river to my people." 
Jeff-1.0 
WA6FWi 
http:foxsmercantile.com

I am fairly curious as to why you have not addressed the point that I have made a couple of times where it's trivial to put a PowerBeam (for example) into a configuration that violates FCC transmit limits.

I apologize if I simply missed it. But in the event I did not, why have you not addressed this?

In the event you did not see it, are you aware that using a PowerBeam M5

400 (as an example) with "Feed Only" on the wireless tab but, in reality, having the feedhorn inside the 400mm dish, and the transmit power set to maximum, will violate FCC transmit limits for the 5 GHz band= ?

Do you concede that Ubiquiti has made it trivial to violate transmit limits by allowing a user to uncheck the "calculate EIRP limits" box in the configuration?

Mind you, I'm not advocating these options go away as I can think of a few situations where they could be handy (and legal) to have? Specifically it is possible to build a custom dish for the transmitter that would fall somewhere in between the two options (Feedhorn only &

400mm dish) that would be, at worst, a gray area.

Furthermore, not only can one violate limits, but one can do so well inside the DFS bands. Do you concede that this presents a real public safety problem if such a configuration is done near an airport using TDWR radar? (yes I know the word radar is redundant here, but I use it for clarification for lay persons)

On 10/17/2019 12:40 AM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote: ...

...

Au contraire, good buddy. It's precisely where precision is _most_ important.

Hi pjp,

It's good that you can "see" something at the RV, as this stuff is line of sight (LOS), where the distances are immense LOS, but they suck otherwise.

The way you get LOS in trees, of course, is to mount the antenna on the tree (which we do all the time), and at home, the way to get LOS is you mount the antenna on the chimney (which we also do all the time).

Or on a pole (which we do all the time too).

As long as you can see the antennas, you're good to go, where we can deal with the Fresnel Zone later.

Once you have two antennas pointed at each other, all you do, physically speaking, is connect the home end to Internet via Cat5 cable, usually to a router switch but it could just as well be directly to the modem or whatever you get your Internet from.

At the RV you have a couple of choices depending on what "device" is at the RV, where you don't need anything else if you're going to plug the Cat5 cable directly into, oh, say, a desktop at the RV.

Often, if you're going to go to all that trouble, what we do is find a spare SOHO router lying around (we have tons of them, as you can imagine), and we just plug the RV antenna Cat6 into that "RV router".

That's the best setup, which gives the most flexibility at the RV end.

Essentially, you have the same Internet at the RV as you have at home. a. At the RV, mobile devices can connect to the RV router b. Laptops and desktops with WiFi can connect to the RV router c. Desktops without Internet can connect to the RV router switch etc.

Notice while my original "pool" example is only hundreds of feet of range, so you can skip the second radio in the case of hundreds of feet - your "RV example" is a kilometer, which is likely too far for more mobile devices and laptops to send back to. (There are people here who can do the math since all this stuff is well known to them - where there are web sites which allow you to run the calculation.)

Without even running any calculations, you'll notice I'm suggesting a radio & router on each end, because I know that works in all circumstances if they can "see" each other (i.e., LOS).

There's lots of good stuff in any search where those are the basics:

Hi Johann, Thanks for that information that it's not a graph; just a row of numbers.

At this point, I'm not going to worry about aiming that antenna, as the Mikrotik routerboard and miniPCI 802.11n WiFi card is working just fine with signal strength of about -40 dBm in "bridge mode", through multiple physical obstacles (walls and floors).

I do agree with you on two things about that Mikrotik interface: o It's like Linux - it can do everything o But you have to find it first and then you have to know how to use it

The Ubiquiti AirOS router GUI is more like home Netgear/Linksys stuff.

I'm like you, in that my only MikroTik equipment was what I got for free when I replaced all the nearby neighbors' Mikrotik stuff with Ubuiquit Nanos (at that time), which we subsequently replaced with 2.4GHz rockets, and then, finally, 5GHz rockets.

Some people kept their old equipment, the rest asked us to cart it away. o I save all sorts of things (want a dozen satellite dishes, for example?)

Yea. I saw that in a video, where the other end of this Mikrotick radio is a normal SOHO router (Netgear, I think), and not Mikrotick CPE.

I'm ok. I'm sure I 'can' get a visible & audio alignment output out of the Mikrotik equipment - but what I learned from you is that you were right when you said they "hide" it, much like Linux is often characterized by Windows or Apple folks.

For the purpose of this thread, I wouldn't recommend Mikrotik to the laypeople, where I'd recommend, as you did, Ubiquiti.

Specifically, I'd "start" with the PowerBeam and then move up or down from there, based on what the customer needs are.

We have our first 'customer', in pjp who asked this question here:

You can help him too, by adding value to the response posted here:

Where any help you can provide will be passed on to pjp accordingly.

Thanks for that advice, which I agree with you and appreciate the help. o I agree with you on the fact Mikrotik took the "linux" route (sort of).

Luckily, we've replaced all the Mikrotik CPE with Ubiquiti by now. o And even then, we went through a series of Ubiquiti CPE

From bullets, to nanos, to powerbeams, to M2 rockets, to M5 rockets. o Sigh. We made a _lot_ of mistakes.

The funny thing I learned is that perhaps the biggest mistake was in trying to buy the smallest device that "fit the requirements".

In hindsight, it would have been cheaper, in the end, to buy the biggest device that fit the requirements.

That is, in hindsight, it just wasn't worth the money attempting to save by buying the "least powerful device" that would work - where we should have bought the most powerful device that we could reasonably afford.

Even so, the switch from 2.4GHz to 5GHz was basically inevitable, over the past ten or so years I've been doing this stuff for my home and for others.

--
Usenet is a public potluck where adutls come to share items of value.

Hi Johann,

Thanks for reminding me of the Mikrotik web interface (I've always used the winbox.exe executable), where I just tried that web interface into RouterOS v6.28, which, by all appearances, is "similar but different" from what it looks like inside of WinBox.

One thing in the web interface which is VERY different is that windows get replaced when you click buttons, whereas in Winbox, windows just pop up all over the place, and remain.

Using a variety of browsers...

I tried the same sequence, but received the same result, exactly. a. Log into the web interface of RouterOS v6.28 as admin b. Press "Interfaces" (top left under "Quick Set") c. That brings up "bridge1", "ether1" & "wlan1" in the "Interface List" d. Left click on "wlan1" which brings up "Interface " d. Click on the "Align..." button, which brings up "Alignment (Running)"

Same as before with Winbox. o "Align" does nothing (that I can tell) o "Scan" spits out (AP, #, BSSID, SSID, Band, Width, Freq, Strength, Noise, S:N, Name, Version) o "Snooper" spits out #, Freq, Band, Address, SSID, SIgnal, Freq %, Traf %, Bandwidth, Networks, Stations. o Frequency Usage spits out usage and frequency and noise floor for a dozen items o "Sniff" lists packet information such that things move in the display o "Torch" does something, who knows what, but things are moving in the display

As before, I'm going to be like Apple people and just give up, as I'm not going to worry about it, since the radio is pushing signal through floors and walls just fine the way it is, given I have about -40 dBm of signal strength on a desktop that has only Ethernet.

Thanks for trying to help me; I appreciate that, but let's not waste time on this MikroTik alignment stuff as your point is well made that they hide things, but Mikrotik took a Linux-like approach, and, we mostly use Ubiquiti anyway.

The person who needs help, I think, is pjp who has the 1km where he's only got a small window LOS into the trees where he parks his RV away from the house.

--
Usenet is a potluck where adults congregate to share items of value.

1. Router (with DHCP)
2. Wi-Fi (802.11 b, g, n)
3. Antenna (with horn)
4. Switch (not shown)

Hi Paul,

In summary, all pjp needs is to be able to "see" each antenna.

I agree you can go pretty far line of sight, as you just shared with us, where I happen to live on a mountain surrounding Silicon Valley, where I can likely see for more than 20, maybe 30 or more miles in some directions, but only five or ten miles in others.

At WiFi frequencies, the distance pjp can attain will depend on how "clear" his line of sight path is from the home to the RV.

If he can "see" the antenna, then, in our experience, the obstructions in the Fresnel Zone aren't going to kill his signal, as long as he chooses a powerful enough setup.

In the clear, I doubt there is a single Ubiquiti CPE radio that wouldn't treat 1 kilometer as child's play though. A kilometer is nothing for WiFi.

What pjp needs, mainly, is simply the following: a. A radio at his house that can see the radio at his RV. b. A radio at his RV that can see the radio at the house.

I didn't think of this, until you brought up distances, but pjp doesn't really even need AC power at the RV since these radios are about as flexible as anything on this planet when it comes to power supplies.

They're usually able to handle from about 12 VDC to about 24 VDC at about 1 amp to 2 amps peak, which, if pjp only wants the radio working when he's literally sitting in the RV, he can do by mooching off the RV battery.

I haven't ever needed to do that; but it sure seems possible (and, if not, one of the folks on this ng will be glad to ream me with facts).

The main requirement pjp needs is each radio has to each the other. o The radios are about $100 (give or take) depending on the radio

For example: o Bullet o LiteBeam o NanoBeam o PowerBeam etc.

I've never used them, but maybe these "nanostation" pairs would work:

They're designed to mount with "no tools" (or so they say).

If the system/signal is circular polarized, the Fresnel zone will have no effect, because a deflected circular polarized signal changes rotation upon deflection and the result is to become virtually invisible to the receiver, regardless of whether it arrives in phase or out of phase. For example, a RHCP signal that hits a street, or a wall, or anything else, then becomes a LHCP signal, and is therefore invisible to the RHCP receiving antenna, regardless of whether it arrives at the receiver in-phase or out-of-phase.

In other words, if you happen to be using circular (or at least elliptical) polarization on your link, you can forget about the Fresnel Zone. Most Wi-Fi hardware uses linear (vertical and horizontal) polarization. With linear polarization, the problem is that at various radii from the direct line of sight, the direct signal cancels with a reflected wave, forming "rings" of high and low signal levels. The rings with no signal or total cancellation are where the reflected path is some multiple of 1/2 wavelength longer than the incident path. This does NOT happen with circular polarization, where the polarization changes "sense", where the polarization changed from (for example) RHCP to LHCP when reflected. The receive antenna "sees" both the incident RHCP wave, as well as the LHCP reflected wave. However, since the receive antenna cannot hear the wrong "sense", it only "sees" the incident RHCP wave and no cancellation occurs. So, if you want to build a link that isn't ruined by Fresnel Zone effects, think circular polarization.

Also, if your path goes from a mountain top, to ground level in a valley, and you have to deal with a temperature inversion layer, chances are good that when the inversion layer is particularly noticeable and at some specific altitude, the signal will disappear for a while when it decides to wander off along the inversion line. You might be able to visually see the other end of the link, but can't get a decent RF signal along the same path.

Also, please consider the effects of fade margin or system operating margin. This is how much stronger the signal happens to be than some reference level, usually somewhere near a minimum usable signal level or BER (bit error rate). This fade margin statistically translates to the amount of time per year your link will be down. SOM Reliability Downtime dB Percent per year 8 90 876 hrs 18 99 88 hrs 28 99.9 8.8 hrs 38 99.99 53 mins 48 99.999 5.3 mins 58 99.9999 32 secs For wi-fi, I like 20dB as a good but arbitrary fade margin for calculations.

Lastly, the various link calculations and data sheet specifications tend to be for the BEST case situation. In other words, reality sucks and your results will follow accordingly. Whatever happens along the path, environment, or with the equipment, will ALWAYS increase losses and decrease range. I can post (for find in the Usenet archives) how I do a link calculation if anyone wants it.

Note: I had some surgery Monday, am recovering normally, but feeling lousy. I need some time to recover. Please forgive me if I don't reply to questions and comments immediately.

Bah Humbug(tm).

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

NOTE TO THE VERY MANY PEOPLE WHO ENDLESSLY QUIBBLED ABOUT TERMINOLOGY: o Now is your golden chance to actually add adult value to help pjp

Hi pjp,

Thanks for confirming that (a) there is 120VAC at the RV, and that (b) the RV is stationary, which means a radio mounted in a tree pointed at the house, within a few hundred feet (or so) of the RV, is feasible.

Only one more thing matters, but not all that much. o What is the "compute device" at the RV end that will use the Internet? a. Is it just a desktop or laptop (in which case, nothing else is needed)? b. Or, will it be cellphones and tablets (which don't have Ethernet ports)?

If it's a single compute device with an Ethernet port, then you don't need anything else at the RV but the treetop radio. If you want multiple devices at the RV which are all Ethernet enabled, then you just need a small switch. If you want cellphones and tablets at the RV, then you need an access point, most easily obtained by plugging in a spare SOHO router.

Up to you - as you'll get DHCP over Ethernet out of the treetop radio.

BTW, the fact you have AC power at the RV is good, but I don't see why you couldn't power the radio with the RV battery, but I haven't tried that - but plenty of people use solar to power radios (I just don't have any experience with it).

If you're gonna plug in a switch (or router) at the RV, then you likely will need AC power, so it's nice you have the AC generator handy at the RV.

All you need then is a matching set of two radios, and a length of Ethernet cable to get to the radios (where the power over Ethernet, which comes with the radios, is almost always placed within a meter or two of the AC power).

HOUSE RADIO:

1. You plug in the house POE to AC power (near the home SOHO router).
2. One end of the house POE goes into the home SOHO router.
3. The other end of the house POE goes into the rooftop radio.

RV RADIO:

1. You plug in the RV POE to AC power (usually very near the RV).
2. One end of the house POE goes into the rv radio.
3. The other end of the RV POE goes into a laptop (or into a spare router).

If we think of signal in terms of the one-way "Internet flow", it goes... a. From the house modem to the house POE to the house radio over cat5 b. From the house radio to the rv radio over the air c. From the rv radio to the rv POE to the RV laptop over Ethernet

I can't imagine that every radio on the Ubiquiti site wouldn't treat a puny kilometer as child's play, but I've learned, over time, that the most powerful radio is usually the most satisfactory (I can't really explain why).

You can choose whether you want 5Ghz or 2GHz, depending on, well, I'm not sure, where I can only think of two reasons, each of which counteract: A. If you need to penetrate "some" foliage, the 2.4GHz is better B. If there are other homes nearby, then the 5GHz is less noisy.

Given almost any radio on the Ubiquiti site would work, I'd suggest you go there and look at your price tolerance, where I'd start by looking at the aforementioned $100 PowerBeam radios first, since they're kind of in the middle of the pack:

Here's a two-pack, for example, at Amazon:

Where you can certainly pay something like half that price for other stuff: o $47 Ubiquiti NanoStation locoM2 2.4GHz Indoor/Outdoor airMax 8dBi CPE

But I have no experience with that 'smaller stuff', but where, I'm sure, others on this ng can let you know if those $50 devices work well enough for you outdoors (which they may very well do well for you ... I just don't have any experience with them myself).

I don't think you can go lower than $100 total cost for the two radios though, and, as someone noted, there are "nuts and bolts" things you may need (like cat5 cable to run up to the roof & tree) that I'm not counting, mostly because we always do just fine with screws and nails lying around, and where Ubiquiti pretty much gives you everything you need but the J-arm or pole itself.

Having said all that, the WISP guys (or the self-described "communinication techs" on this newsgroup (quite a few quibbled about decibels, for example), should be able to advise you on what actual POWER you need at a puny 1 kilometer, as I don't bother with the calculations since all my equipment is overkill for such puny distances to thow WiFi.

BTW, this is a guy who apparently outfits RV parks with WiFi: His site "may" have ideas for you specific to RVs.

NOTE TO THE VERY MANY PEOPLE WHO ENDLESSLY QUIBBLED ABOUT TERMINOLOGY: o Now is your golden chance to actually add adult value to help pjp

--
Hint: Silence is what we typically get from these "semantic specialists" 
when it comes down to actually providing on-topic adult technical value.

Arlen has to make a disparaging remark in most every post. Makes him feel better about himself.

Just don't feed the troll, and all will be well.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Why all the hateful disparaging remarks?

Hi Johann,

Let's focus our insight on helping people do what we do all the time, OK? O We throw WiFi easily for a dozen miles, without blinking, Johann

They can certainly paint an RV with WiFi when it's only a mere km away!

My point is that when pjp asks for help in throwing WiFi a kilometer from his house to his RV, I don't endlessly harp on what there is zero evidence for - which is that I feel it's suspicious that his RV is parked a kilometer away from his house - I don't like that - I think that's suspicously - highly suspicious in fact - so - instead of helping the guy - I endlessly harp on WHY he parks his RV a kilometer way from the house. o Maybe he's parking his RV a kilometer from his house to break the law!

You think that way, and that's OK. o But I just think the guy wants to paint the RV with Internet.

We think differently, Johann. o I'm more trusting than you Johann. More innocent. o I'm always purposefully helpful.

Which is why it bothers me that the common trolls who infest this newsgroup are the opposite of me, which is that nothing they posts adds any value whatsoever - and - even ignorning them - doesn't stop them from infesting the USenet potluck (just look at what the trolls wrote in this thread).

I think differently than the trolls (e.g., I never troll). o I think differently than the "semantic expert" (e.g., I add value).

And, I think differently than anyone who harranges us on "legal" issues o When there is zero evidence that pjp is attempting to break the law

It doesn't even occur to me to think the way you think. o Since you clearly think that way - all you have to do is say it once.

And then we can get back to adding value on Usenet. o Deal?

The guy needs advice on how to throw his WiFi a kilometer o From his house to his RV o Where there is only a "hole" in the trees back at the RV o And where the RV has generator power.

One place you can help advise pjp (and the rest of us as a result) is how you'd recommend he "power" the tree radio at the RV.

For example, would you recommend just mooching off the RV battery?

Let's stop harranging on the legality issue. o You said it once; we agreed ... can we move on to helping people?

Another question you can help advise pjp on, and, in the process, the rest of us learn from your advice, is how much power loss is calculatable for penetrating less-than-dense foliage a distance of a kilometer.

I documented in this post just now a case where someone went about 500 feet through what appears from the pictures to be all foliage, where I'm curious what you think, from your experience, is possible to penetate with typical Ubiquiti equipment such as that described in this post just now:

--
The whole point of Usenet is for adults to helpfully share on-topic value.

Because Arlen just can't handle being corrected when he's wrong. Much like our current President.

--
"I am a river to my people." 
Jeff-1.0 
WA6FWi 
http:foxsmercantile.com

At least our current President is not addicted to peppering everything he says with annoying bullet points.

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason --

Don't talk to cops! -- Badges don't grant extra rights --

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Dan,

I'm suggesting that even the PowerBeams are overkill for what pjp needs. o They're #200 for the set

Amazon sells them (do they ship to wherever pjp lives?):

These are hundreds of times more powerful than any consumer equipment you're likelty to find in any local box store, I wager.

These things go for many miles, so 1km is child's play. o You can always dial down the transmit power as desired

As you've seen in my photos, these radios have a way of multiplying over time, so you will always appreciate that you can re-purpose them any time you like (e.g., if pjp sells his RV, he can re-use the radios).

One example of radio re-use is for him to mount the radio on a pole OUTSIDE his house, where he can feed his own Internet signal BACK into the house, so that he can paint a far off corner of the house.

Running the cat5 cable outside is usually a lot easier than running it inside, which is why we do this neat trick all the time where I live.

All this stuff is weather proofed like you can't believe, besides.

--
Bringing useful ideas to Usenet for discussion by intelligent adults.

Hi J.P. Gilliver,

That might be a neat idea for pjp (and others) to explore.

Unfortunately, that link shows up "dead" when I just tried it:

Do you have a working link so we can take a look at it for pjp? o What's important is the transmit power & antenna gain!

Also, does anyone know what COUNTRY pjp is in?

Let's look at that antenna, where, I entered its description into Google: o 2.4Ghz Wifi Antenna 25Dbi Rp Sma Outdoor Wireless Yagi Antenna Directional B S2P Which found it for $18 at Amazon:

To see what my favorite distributor, Streakwave, sells like it:

And $14 at Walmart:

Where this has a nice photo of the connector, which seems to be, on first inspection, to be an "N-connector" (like those the bullets have):

Given you need to reduce losses when connecting these things, the $75 "bullet" should plug right in, and that gives you 630mW of transmit power:

Note: You do NOT want to be futzing around with the connectors! (You can lose decibels in just the connection, even when done right!)

Hi John, You have to consider that the user doesn't TOUCH the RF cabling.

The "cable" for RF is always as short as it can possibly be. o Notice there is ZERO cable in my powerbeams, for example. o And notice my bullet attached to a planar antenna has zero cable

Your setup costs about the same as my setup pictured above does. o Depending on how much your radio costs, of course

The wind is NOT a problem for any of these dish antennas properly mounted. o Neither is the rain.

I wouldn't choose my antenna based on worrying about what won't happen. o I'd choose the antenna based on gain and location

I'd also diligently MATCH the RF connector!

John, The USB dongle "might" be a good idea o But your link didn't work for me.

Do you have a description of it? o Particularly the transmit power & antenna gain

--
When Usenet works like it should, adults share valueable information.

Hi Dan,

I like JP Gilliver's suggestion to use less expensive equipment than the $100 PowerBeams I'm suggesting that pjp use to throw his WiFi from his house to a puny 1 kilometer away - where JP's link was dead so we don't yet know the transmit power of the suggested radio.

But on the antenna connections, I wouldn't suggest extending the length.

o Remember I asked the group WHY my $75 bullet had zero Rf cable?

It's the same reason my $100 PowerBeam also has zero RF cable:

About six inches is the longest RF cable I have, in my $150 rockets, Dan:

There is a really good REASON the RF coax is short to nonexistent, Dan. o Paul already said why, when I asked him why this is the case.

When you need distance by wire, you use cat5 cable. o It's what I've seen all the professionals do.

The only thing pjp needs to do with the RF coax is MATCH the connector. o Everything else is done with cat5 cable.

I like John's idea of less expensive equipment - but we don't yet know the cost or power of the suggested "USB" radio transmitter so we can't do a comparison yet for pjp.

--
Usenet is a potluck where people from all backgrounds mix & share ideas.