Inverter Generator

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Hello, all.  This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any  
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the  
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter  
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?  Is it crystal-controlled or  
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,  
not the rpm of the engine.  Since these appliances are designed to  
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think  
frequency stability is important.  Thanks for your time and comment.  
Sincerely,
--  
J. B. Wood                e-mail: arl snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com

Re: Inverter Generator
Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.



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Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
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That's not how it works.
The generator supplies the raw energy to run an inverter.
Locking an inverter to a crystal is simple, and you get
and output frequency with 50 ppm accuracy.

Besides, what good does "phase locked to the mains" do when
it's obvious that you're running a generator because the
mains have gone down.



--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
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Typically, it's a governor, NOT a tachometer.

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:

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Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption  
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage  
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the  
engine-driven generator portion.  The generator's function is to supply  
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output.  
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed  
for connection to a motor vehicle battery.  So what component(s) control  
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of  
accuracy?  Sincerely,

--  
J. B. Wood                e-mail: arl snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com

Re: Inverter Generator
If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.


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Re: Inverter Generator
wrote:

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What's it to you?  For many applications, frequency isn't important,
but for others, it can be.  If frequency is determined by the the
crystal clock of a microprocessor (my guess, but I really don't know),
it should be easy to get pretty close to 60 Hz and clocks will keep
good time and motors will run at the right speed.  Some devices will
run cooler at the right frequency, too.  

Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 10:04 AM, Look165 wrote:
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You've obviously never had a ferroresonant transformer set
fire to itself because it was dealing with a generator
that was NOT on frequency.

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Inverter Generator
You need to see this as two entirely different systems, the output being dependent on the input for raw energy (watts), but not for frequency.    

What comes off an automotive *alternator* is speed-to-voltage dependent AC, which goes through a diode-block and regulator and becomes chopped DC. Which, in turn is *smoothed* by the mother of all capacitors called a "Battery".  

Which then goes into the Inverter - which does not really care whether it is alternator power, or battery power. It takes the DC at some voltage between ~11 VDC and ~15 VDC, and converts it to AC by its internal magic.  

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA  

Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 12:03 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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Hello, and that's a big detour off my original question, IMHO.  Having  
said that I have no problem with what you stated.  Sincerely,

--  
J. B. Wood                e-mail: arl snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com

Re: Inverter Generator
On Wednesday, 20 March 2019 14:56:16 UTC, J.B. Wood  wrote:
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Whatever components the designer chose to use in said oscillator. It could  
be anything, but a crystal is unlikely, they cost at least a penny more.


NT

Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/20/19 9:49 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Hello, and I already addressed your other post.  I think a crystal is  
probably likely.  You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible  
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc) Lacking  
knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use  
whatever they need to use".  Not exactly an erudite response.  Sincerely,

--  
J. B. Wood                e-mail: arl snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com

Re: Inverter Generator
On Thursday, 21 March 2019 10:35:28 UTC, J.B. Wood  wrote:
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uld be anything, but a crystal is unlikely, they cost at least a penny more
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cost, as I said.

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sorry to hear the reality doesn't meet your approval.

Re: Inverter Generator
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...
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The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing.  Look  
at the Arduino processor boards.  They can be bought from China for  
about 2 ot 3 dollars.  They are powerful enough to run the inverter part  
of the inverter.  



Re: Inverter Generator
Tabby just wants to find fault with everything.

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Inverter Generator
On Thursday, 21 March 2019 14:39:57 UTC, Ralph Mowery  wrote:
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No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ce
ramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensibl
e mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit
 when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's
 nothing further for us to discuss.

Re: Inverter Generator
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...
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discuss.

I guess that I used crystal too loose.  Anyway the small processors and  
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.  

Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most  
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars.  I have even ordered them  
already programmed for about $ 4 each.  I am sure in quanties of  
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.



Re: Inverter Generator
On 3/22/19 12:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
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I have ordered those for a project.
Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Inverter Generator
snipped-for-privacy@att.net says...
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$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now.  I only know  
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and  
minimum of $ 100 for an order.  Another in England that is I think about  
$ 30 per crystal.



Re: Inverter Generator

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Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
circuit.  They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.



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