How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

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How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
<
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


Mine isn't working so I need to figure out how it works first.

o My mains is two hots plus a neutral (i.e., it's not 3 phase)
o There are two duplicate transfer boxes (presumably one per hot phase?)
o Each box has a beefy fist-sized double-ended solenoid
o Each box has what looks like a plastic relay
o And then each box has a fuse strip & a junction strip

That's pretty much it, where I'm not sure which "side" of the main circuit  
breaker this two-box transfer switch is on yet.

Before I can troubleshoot, I need to know how it works.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg


1. The beefy double-ended solenoid is labeled:
   "Generac transfer switch pn #71340, 250VAC/100A"
   "This transfer switch is for use with control module ass'y
    #75595 - #79844 - #83494"
    <
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg

2. The plastic relay is labeled
   o Deltrol controls, 166F DPDT, coil 12 VDC,  
   o 1/3 HP 13 AMP 120 VAC
   o 1/2 HP 13 AMP 277 VAC
   o 3/4 HP  3 AMP 600 VAC
   o 10 AMP 28 VCD
   o 8600, 20552-81, 9346
   <
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

3. The 4 fuses are each labeled either Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5.
   <
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

4. The junction strip is labeled  
   o Utility 1
   o Utility 2
   o Load 1
   o Load 2
   o blank
   o 23
   o 194
   <
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

What is the role of each of those 4 parts in this transfer switch?
<
https://i.postimg.cc/V6L4ZxZw/transfer07.jpg


Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

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How about a real Gernerac model number?  The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
<http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup
<http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.

Why two transfer switches?

Got a schematic of how you wired it?  If not, trace the wires and make
one.

--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:36:50 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks for offering suggestions and asking questions.  

I didn't wire it, but I'm pretty sure this is standard stuff.

It's just typical stuff I don't know - but I'm sure it's to typical code,
which means everyone wires them similarly I would think since there's no
rocket science going on.

I "think" the reason for the two panels is that each panel supplies half
the house, which seems to be how it works when I pull the Buss fuses.

But that's exactly why I asked if anyone knew how the TYPICAL setup works,
since this has to be as typical as typical gets for such things, given it
has to be to code which means everyone does it similarly.

Back to your question, I don't know what an "emergency panel" is, as
there's nothing "emergency" about this. PG&E power goes out once a month
out here, for about a day on average, for about 10 to 12 times a year,
where this setup isn't flipping those two fist-sized solenoids
automatically.

I can manually flip them, and the setup works - but not automatically - but
I'm NOT asking about that - as the problem will literally scream out where
it is if I only knew how these things are typically wired.

Googling for what you mean by 'emergency panel", it "seems" that what you
mean by "emergency panel" is the same as what I mean by "transfer switch",
where I get the name of "transfer switch" right off the boxes themselves.

In short, I "think" this is set up as typical as typical can be, which
means anyone who knows how these things are set up would be able to explain
it, where I get Jeff's point that I can follow the wires, but that still
doesn't tell me WHAT each thing does - just where the wires go (and there
are a zillion of them).

I "think" the two panels are for two sides of the house, where I "assume"
one panel has one hot and one neutral, while the other panel, I assume, has
another hot and another neutral.

Otherwise, why would the two panels be so exactly symmetric?

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:00:13 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks for that document:
<https://faceitsalon.com/generac-200-amp-transfer-switch-wiring-diagram/

I just found this also, but it's the wrong model number:
<https://soa.generac.com/manuals/6349405/0L0176
o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722
o Model Numbers RTSI100M3, RTSI200M3, RTSN100R3, RTSN200R3, RTSN400R3

Same with this one, which seems to be the wrong model number:
<http://soa.generac.com/manuals/3003429614/0L1517
o Generac Owners Manual for Automatic Transfer Switch 888-436-3722
o Model Numbers RTSW100G3, RTSW100J3, RTSW100K3, RTSW200G3, RTSW200J3,
RTSW200K3

Unfortunately, I can't find a model number for the General Transfer Switch
yet, but only model numbers for the big double-fisted solenoids.

I will call Generac tomorrow though.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:07:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

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Hi Clare,
That was a GREAT question since I just looked and it's NOT what I thought.

I always thought I had 200Amp mains service, but I looked at the mains
breaker which clearly says it's a 300Amp breaker, and on that same mains
panel are three separate 100 Amp circuit breakers (plus a couple of 30 Amp
spares).

So the service must be 300 Amp mains service, where I looked again at the
two double-fisted solenoids in the transfer switches, each of which says
it's 100 Amps.

That makes sense because when the transfer panels were working, they only
ran "most" of the house, in that they didn't run the pool (which is one of
the 100 Amp breakers I spoke about above on the main panel).

Given that, here's what I "think" I have.
o 300 Amp mains service (broken into 3 100 Amp circuits)
o Transfer switch handles only 200 Amps (100 Amps per "box")

Does that sort of sound like it might make sense?

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

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Thanks for the additional questions as this pretty much has to be typical
stuff - but I just have no experience with debugging transfer switches.

This is the model number of the generator, if that's what you're asking
<
https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg


That Generac Generator is pretty typical stuff out here, if a bit puny,
which is a Generac model 09067-9 8KW (67Amps) propane generator.

Maybe the model number on this placard is ONLY for the solenoids?
<
https://i.postimg.cc/MKnVYxgH/transfer13.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

This, for example, is the placard on the side of the panel inside:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg


And this sticker is also on the inside of the panel:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/cLMqkqny/transfer10.jpg

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Now that's interesting!  (I can call 888-922-8482 tomorrow.)
<http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup

The link shows that there "should" be a transfer switch serial number!
<http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c
But I don't see any number that would be a serial number yet.

However while looking I found covers which have slightly different cards:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg

<
https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I agree. But first I have to figure out what they are.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
I don't know. It's got to be standard stuff. Everything has to be to code.

I suspect each box controls one hot wire, as when I pulled the Buss fuses,
one side of the house turned off when the generator was running with no
power coming in from PG&E.

Both boxes seem almost perfect symmetric, so I think it's just one hot for
each box. But that's why I asked about a typical setup, as this must be to
code.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
It came with the house, and it's to code since the house has all the
permits filled, and it used to work but then stopped working about a year
or two ago.

What happens is that the power goes out, and then the generator turns on,
but the two fist-sized solenoids don't trigger. I can trigger them manually
by putting this handle which is screwed to the box into the big solenoid.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/7PNgnwJV/transfer15.jpg


Moving that lever down in each solenoid turns the transfer switch on.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/nh3RRqs3/transfer14.jpg

But that's supposed to happen automatically when the power goes out
and the generator turns on.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

While I was looking for the serial number, I found the closest thing to a
schematic, which is this placard on the inside of the cover (which has been
off for a long time since the transfer switch no longer turns on
automatically when the power goes out.  

*AUTOMATIC TRANSFER SWITCH FOR USE ON STANDBY SYSTEMS*
Suitable for control of motors, electrical discharge lamps, tungsten
filament lamps, and electric heating equipment where the sum of the motor
full-load ampere ratings and the ampere ratings of other loads do not
exceed the ampere rating of the switch and the tungsten load does not
exceed 30 percent of the switch rating.

*AUTOMATIC SEQUENCE*
*UTILITY FAIL* - Utility voltage sensor senses when utility voltage level
is below 60% of nominal. Engine start sequence is initiated after a
6-second time delay.

*ENGINE WARMUP* - Time delay to allow for engine warmup before transfer.
Fixed at 15 seconds.

*STANDBY VOLTAGE* - Standby output voltage must be above 50% of nominal
voltage before tansfer is allowed.

*TRANSFER* - Switch transfers load from utility to standby supply; occurs
after standby voltage is above set levels.

*UTILITY PICKUP* - Utility voltage sensor. Voltage pickup level is 80% of
nominal voltage.

*RETRANSFTER* - Time delay after utility voltage supply is above pickup
level before load is transferred from standby to utility. Fixed at 6
seconds.

*ENGINE COOLDOWN* - Time delay for engine no-load cooldown. Fixed at 1
minute.

System will operate automatically every seven days from the time of initial
setting to ensure proper operation. Consult Owner's Manual for further
explanation of Transfer System operating and features.  
Systems shall be tested periodically on a schedule acceptable to the
authority having jurisdiction, to assure maintenance in proper operating
condition.  
Enclosure is type 1, suitable for indoor installation.
When protected with 200 ampere maximum (110a rated device) or 400 ampere
maximum (200a rated device), Class J, T fuses, this switch is suitable for
use on a circuit capable of delivering not more than 200,000 RMS
symmetrical amperes, 250 volts maximum.

When used  with 200 ampere maximum circuit breaker 100 ampere device; 400
ampere maximum curcuit [sic] breaker 200 ampere device; (type G.E. TJK or
Westinghouse HLC) this switch is suitable for use on a curcuit [sic]
capable of delivering not more than 10,000 RMS symmetrical amperes, 250
volts maximum.  

Connect utility, standby generator supply and customer load as shown.  
*Transfer Switch:*
N1 N2 N3 === Utility Supply
T1 T2 T3 === Customer Load
E1 E2 E3 === Standby Supply

Terminal connectors tightening torque is 50 in-pounds (100a rated device)
or 250 in-pounds (200a rated device). Control wiring terminal connectors
tightening torque is 11 inch-pounds. 79959 D
<
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg

<
https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg


Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:56:52 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

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Nope.  I'm looking for the model number or name of the transfer box so
I can read the docs which should have wiring and installation
instructions.  Not much I can offer unless I know what you have.

Methinks I found the install manual:
<https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/rts_inst_man_2013.pdf

"Installing Automatic Generator Generac Guardian"
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kWuRHegXuk
Part 1

<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk2D3AQITGA
Part 2

<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kis7j2XNtw
Part 3

The transfer box they used looks like yours.  Start at 2:12.
<https://youtu.be/-Kis7j2XNtw?t13%2
Notice that the terminal blocks are labeled.

I did some digging and found that the only excuse for 2 transfer
switches is two generators, or two different sources of backup power
such as generator and solar inverter.

I hate be the bearer of bad news, but you potentially have a miswired
mess.  I'm fairly sure it would not pass an electrical inspection in
its present form.  If you have time and money, find someone with a
clue and let them fix the mess.  My guess(tm) is they would recommend
ripping it all out and starting over with the wiring and installation.

Good luck.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.



Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:50:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

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I kept looking and found the model number of _each_ transfer switch!
<
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg


The model number of _each_ transfer switch is: 79848A

Googling for that model number finds an exact lookalike for _one_ box
<https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html

Here is just one of the eight pictures of that lookalike 79848A:
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ -/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

That's pretty close!
<https://youtu.be/-Kis7j2XNtw?t13%2

The manual switch is different, and the generator is different - but it's
similar, where I will go through that excellent video with my Fluke.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I checked my main panel, which is definitely 300 Amp mains service (I had
always thought it was 200 amps, but it clearly has a 300 Amp main breaker,
plus 3 separate 100 Amp breakers, where the house has two of them and the
pool has one).

Quoted text here. Click to load it

The last guy who worked on that generator is in Santa Cruz, based on the
label on the outside panel, which I found buried under stuff.  

This DEFINITELY WORKED so it's NOT miswired. The only problem is that the
solenoids are not automatically kicking on.  

Here's what SHOULD happen:
1. PG&E power goes out about monthly
2. The Generac generator automatically turns on
3. The two transfer switches should automatically turn on
4. The house should have two 100 Amps (the pool does NOT have power)
[Although the generator is puny - it's only able to output 67 amps!]
5. When PG&E comes back about 24 hours later - the generator turns off
6. The transfer switch transfers the two 100 Amps back to the mains

Everything above is working EXCEPT - I have to MANUALLY flip the
double-fisted solenoids.

If I switch just ONE of them, I get only half the house.
If I switch the SECOND one also, then I get the full house.

So my main problem is troubleshooting why the double-fisted solenoid is not
automatically turning on.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:22:39 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

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Let me guess... State Electric Generators formerly in Harvey West
Park?  They moved to Scotts Valley:
<https://www.stategen.com
High prices and so-so work.  You could do worse.  State does much
better work than what I saw in your photos which suggests that they
were fixing something.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Try this video.  Notice that the relays switch based on the condition
of one input wire labeled "transfer".  
"Generac automatic transfer switch explained, demo"
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg

The "transfer" line on the terminal strip comes from the electronics
that detects that the utility power has dropped and that the generator
has produced stable power for XX number of seconds.  When it gets both
of those, it grounds the "transfer" wire, which closes the relay, etc.
In other words, your problem is not in the relay box, but rather in
whatever you're using for electronics to detect utility and generator
power (and timers).  In the above video, it's the black box with all
the terminals and colorful labels.  I don't see such a box full of
electronics in your photo:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

Find the "transfer" terminal, disconnect whatever is connected to it,
ground it, and see if it acts like the relay in the video.

Incidentally, 200A service should use 2/0 copper (or 4/0 Aluminum or
CCA) minimum.  In some counties, it's 3/0 copper minimum.  That
doesn't look like 2/0 in the photo.  More like #4.  Color me very
suspicious.



--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:25:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

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You are pretty good Jeff, as these are the two stickers on the cover
<
https://i.postimg.cc/GmMxjVLY/transfer27.jpg


I generally obfuscate where I live, but suffice to say I can probably see
your house from where I am, or close to it. :)

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I'm glad the narrator said he couldn't find out how it worked online, which
is exactly the type of answer I'm asking about here.

At 34 seconds he explained what that cryptic "194" meant!
<https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t34%
And he explained what that cryptic "23" meant on my panel!
<
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

Where:
o 23 === ground
o 194 === +12VDC
So I can now test the two-fisted solenoid by putting 12 VDC across them,
which is what the generator should do, which will "transfer" the power from
line power to generator power. (This is what I've been doing manually with
the mechanical lever.)
<
https://i.postimg.cc/HxWxgCnd/transfer28.jpg


The narrator then showed that when the PG&E power is restored, the
generator will _remove_ that 12VDC, which flips the two-fisted solenoid
back to "line" power.

The one bit of confusion is that he said at 90 seconds that each solenoid
is controlling 240 volts, but I think it might only be controlling 120
volts (but I'm not sure if it's controlling 120V or 220V yet).
<https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t90%

He then explained the transfer is controlled from the "plastic relay".
<
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I agree his box is different than mine, where mine is just like this one:
<https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html

Mine and that one for sale are "simpler" looking than his is.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I think it should be easy to put 12VDC onto pins 23 & 194, but I need to
get a bunch of those BBS-4 and BBS-5 fuses first.

So my current plan is:
a. Source the two missing BBS-4 (or?) BBS-5 fuses.
b. Then test with 12VDC to see if the double-fisted solenoid operates

If that makes it work, then my problem is likely the "sensing" circuitry,
where this sticker explains all that sensing circuitry is hard coded, I
think: <
https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg

Quoted text here. Click to load it

You have a good eye, where all I can say is that I didn't wire it.
I did INCORRECTLY say it was 300 Amp mains service, where, when I shined a
light on it and put chalk on the mains breaker, it turns out to be 200Amp
service. <
https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg

What's odd is that there are _three_ 100 Amp sub panels!
<
https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg


Which seems kind of strange, but I didn't wire anything and all the permits
that were pulled were closed, so, it must make sense (code wise).

Two of those 100 Amp panels are in the house, and one is at the pool.

I need to call Generac (800-GENERAC) where I'm confused about the fuses
o Why BBS-4 _and_ BBS-5 fuses?
<
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg


Once I source those hard-to-get fuses, I will test the 12VDC at cryptic
pins 23 & 194.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg


If the double-fisted solenoid does not trigger...
<
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg


then we know that the sensing circuit isn't working to put 12VDC across
those two pins. <
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

Thanks for that wonderful video.  

I'm a bit leery of what I can test with the MAINS connected though, since
the power is currently running fine ... so I will need to be careful since
it's only once a month that the PG&E power goes out for me to run the full
test.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

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This is closer, but not exactly either, I think:
<https://www.generator-parts.com/manuals/home-standby/078590.pdf

Apparently, they recommend testing the transfer switch _monthly_
<https://www.ecmweb.com/contractor/test-transfer-switch

This has a transfer switch testing sequence
<https://testguy.net/content/227-Transfer-Switch-Testing-and-Maintenance-Guide

I found a paper copy of the 32-page owners manual, part number 98374 which
is titled "Generac II Emergency Power Systems Owner's Manual" (revision 0,
dated 11/22/1995) and which contains a generic parts list and exploded
diagram for both the generator and transfer switch (apparently they come as
a matched set).  

The four fuses in the exploded diagram just say 2 Amps 600Volts, but I
wonder if mine are double that because there are two transfer switches
(where on the net, the video Jeff provided _also_ used red 4 amp fuses!).
<https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t12%3

I found that two outfits will sell generac parts to the public online:
<https://www.jackssmallengines.com/
<https://www.ordertree.com/

I'll call Generac tomorrow to get more details.
888-GENERAC (888-436-3722) extension 4, extension 2
1-262-544-4811  

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

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Methinks your first problem is finding the box that controls the
automagic transfer switch (which contains the sensing, timing, and
switching logic).  Something like this:
"Automatic Transfer Switch Controller Tutorial"
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqhhcRAwTM

It's probably inside the generator enclosure.  Just look for another
rats nest of wires.  The thresholds, timing, interlock, etc settings
are usually adjustable.  

I have two guesses:

1.  The +12VDC that runs the relay is probably missing because the
starter battery in the generator is dead, or the fuse that protects it
is blown.  That might explain the missing fuses.  It might also be
that State Electric took one look at the mess and ran away.  There
might be some lower voltage coming from the charger trying to charge a
dead (shorted) cell.

2.  Every controller I've seen has a self-test and/or test-run
feature.  You should be able to test the transfer switch with the
test-run button instead of reworking the wiring.

Also, I have some suggestions:

1.  Don't play with the transfer switch with the utility AC power
applied.  The life you save may be your own.  The undersized wires
feeding the transfer switch should go to a double breaker on the main
panel.  Flip it open, check that there is now no AC on the contacts or
anywhere in the rats nest of wires, and then troubleshoot.

2.  Draw as schematic diagram and label everything.  If this were my
headache, that's the first thing I would do.  

3.  If you know a local electrician, who won't turn you in to the
county, have him look at the wiring and make some recommendations.

--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
Jeff:

The creature that calls itself Arlen G. Holder is trying hard for a Darwin Award.  

For its sake, and ours, please let it win!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA  

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:11:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

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Hi Jeff,
I agree with you, and I can clearly see that there is a rat's nest inside
the generator, which must be doing the initial sensing of the power in the
first place, as you mentioned.

I think my task is EASIER than looking at that rat's nest inside the
generator though, since all I need are the wires coming OUT of the
generator.

I'm not sure yet where to FIND those wires inside the transfer switch, but
I think the first (and only?) place I need to look is at what the pins of
that "plastic solenoid" do...
<
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

since that solenoid seems to send the purple and blue wire 12VDC to the
"double-fisted solenoid" to switch power from the mains to the generator.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I understand and appreciate this assessment, where there's LOTS I didn't
mention (which is always the case in such things), mainly the fact being I
"think" it was me who pulled those fuses long ago and forgot to put them
back (I think I was testing them but I don't actually recall).

Also, you're actually correct that the battery in the generator WAS dead,
since I had disconnected it to charge it, and then I had left it
disconnected where the charge eventually bled off. I actually had to
jumpstart the generator when the power last went out, but I have since
charged the battery (I'm gonna put quick connect clamps on the battery at
some point, which will help in the charging process since I have multiple
spare batteries I swap in and out of that generator).

Quoted text here. Click to load it

This is good to know, for two reasons:
1. This is dangerous stuff so having safe tests is required, and,  
2. Most of what I read suggested testing MONTHLY (which is crazy frequent)

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks for that advice, Jeff, as I'm well aware of the power, but I'm not
sure yet how to test a transfer switch. It does seem prudent to test the
transfer switch ISOLATED from BOTH the mains and the generator.

Preventing the generator from turning on should be easy as it has a power
switch and it requires the battery so it's easy to prevent it from turning
on.

I'm not totally sure simply turning OFF the mains will isolate the transfer
switch - but that's simply because I'm currently ignorant of the wiring
diagram (which is one reason you said to do that first).

If the power goes from the power pole to the utility meter to the main 200
Amp breaker switch, and THEN to the transfer switch, then doing all tests
with the main 200Amp circuit breaker off is prudent. (Obviously I'd
doublecheck with the Fluke DMM.)

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yup. I agree. I had wanted from this question on Usenet to first get a
general idea of how these transfer switches work - which - I think I kind
of now have - but the exact wiring of every connection is still needed
before I can effectively troubleshoot.

Generac sent me the owners manual for my 09067-9 generator, which contains
exploded diagrams, for example, here's the exploded diagram of the 09067-9
Generator Control Panel:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg

And the wiring diagram for the 09067-9 generator itself:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/wMg9DggX/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg


And here's the exploded view for the 79848A transfer switch:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/Hx4VqSLt/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Exploded-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-18.jpg

And the wiring diagram for the 79848A transfer switch:
<
https://i.postimg.cc/1XFTVs7N/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Wiring-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-15.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Once, I called a well pump guy, and told him I had a problem, which he
fixed, but I told him before he came out to charge me based on the fact I
would be standing there right next to him as he debugged, asking him
questions while he did the work in front of me.

It was then that I noticed he simply replaced entire circuit boards, simply
by the process of pulling them out, putting the new one in, and finding
that it worked, so he was about to take the old circuit board "home" with
him, where I said if I'm paying for the new one, I want the old one (I
still have it). Some day I'll figure out specifically what's "wrong" with
it. :)

A similar thing happened with the heater repairman, who simply replaced the
main circuit board, but he insisted that there was a core charge which _he_
wanted back - and that he's have to charge me for that - so he got the core
charge, not me.  

I learned from that that these guys replace the entire board rather than
figure out what's wrong ON the board.

Given that replacing things seems to be what the repair techs do also, in
this case, I think I have three options, two of which are what many people
use, while the third option is the approach I'm currently trying:
1. Replace everything, one by one, until the damn thing works
2. Pay State Electric or Spiess Electric to fix it (in my presence)
3. Debug the damn thing (after first figuring out how it works)

Personally, I like to debug first, where simply UNDERSTANDING how the
circuit works usually causes the offending part to SCREAM OUT that it's
broken.  

To that end, I'll follow your advice and start marking up the panel with a
label of the purpose of each of the myriad connections.

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:45:43 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

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The wiring diagram of the generator shows the (missing) controller,
with all the connections to the automatic transfer switch.  Pg12 of
the manual, lower schematic, shows wires 23 and 194 going to the
transfer switch.  Since the other end of these wires goes only to the
solenoid (relay) coil, I would presume that these should have 0V
across them when the transfer switch is on utility power, and 12VDC(?)
when it on generator power.  Put an LED and resistor across both
solenoid coil terminals so you can see what's happening without
fumbling with a volts guesser.

Unfortunately, there's no schematic for the controller logic board
which runs the show.  Near the controller logic board is SW1, which is
the "start/stop" switch.  That should NOT activate the relay on the
transfer switch.  This is the generator test switch which I previously
indicated was on all such autostart generators.

SW2 is labeled "Set Exercise Switch" which is something like a "test"
switch but also is not intended to test the transfer switch.  There
should be something in the manual on how to use this switch.  Here's a
video that might offer a clue on what I think is a similar generator:
"How To Set Exercise Time on Generac Air Cooled Generator Pre Nexus
Controller APSwrap"
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go0qt4n0dhs

There's quite a bit on how a proper test switch should operate:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=automatic+transfer+switch+test

This is a typical generator test which demonstrates proper operation:
"Home Generator Transfer Test"
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1a-fST3cE


Also on the schematic is the fuse F1 (15A), which appears to protect
the controller 12VDC battery line.  Check this fuse if you have a good
12VDC battery, but no controller function.  If this 15A fuse is
actually blown, you potentially have a high current short somewhere in
the generator on the 12VDC line.  Be careful tracking this one down.

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Remember, you have but one life to give for your backup power system.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.


Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On 7/17/19 4:43 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You can't possible be that stupid.
This is just another one of your long rambling posts that
goes on and on so you can listen to yourself.

Kindly go fuck yourself.

That's your cue to (wrongfully as usual) call me Snit,
because you just HAVE to reply.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On 7/17/19 10:37 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
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+1

Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

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Hi Clare,

You are correct the generator is a puny 8KW Generac, model 09067-9
<
https://i.postimg.cc/ZKBDgGXs/transfer08.jpg


This propane generator is so tiny that it's only capable of 67 Amps, so I'm
not sure why there are two 100Amp transfer switches yet, but the house is
300 Amp mains service, where the pool is 100 Amps, and the house takes a
circuit breaker each of 100 Amps.

It used to work, but now, when the power goes out (which happens about
monthly out here in the mountains), the generator kicks in automatically,
but the house doesn't get the current because the double-fisted solenoids
don't turn on automatically.

I have to turn the solenoids on manually, which is the problem I'm trying
to debug by asking how these two 100A transfer switches typically work.

I did find the model number, just now, after climbing on a stool
<
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg


This model number is hand written as Generac 79848A (DD).

Googling for that model number, it does show up on Ebay.
Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A
Switch is CSA Certified for use with control module assembly #79844, #75595
and #83494

<https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html

Generac Transfer Switch 100 Amp 250 VAC One Owner Used #71340 #79848A
$408.45 Buy It Now 32d 16h 48m 37s, Click to see shipping cost, 30-Day
Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee
Seller: sparkyinpa (13,861) 99.6%, Location: Reading, Pennsylvania, Ships
to: US, Item: 153421838181
Condition: Used, Condition: This transfer switch is in good working
condition was removed because the generator was upgraded. Inside is very
clean. Message us for shipping quote., Model: 71340, MPN: #71340 #79848A,
Brand: Generac, Rated Amperage: 100 A, Type: Automatic

There are pictures with that Ebay listing which look almost exactly the
same as mine does, so I'm pretty sure that's the model number.

*GENERAC TRANSFER SWITCH*
<
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/153421838181_/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One.jpg

<
https://i.postimg.cc/gJpTR3ST/transfer17.jpg


*HOLE ON BOTTOM*
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vCAAAOSwxetckUJz /$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/0yJWBVh4/transfer18.jpg


*DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID* PN 71340, 250VAC, 100Amp Assembly _79848A_
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ihUAAOSwyQJckUJ7 /$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/TwTthfh8/transfer19.jpg


*GUTS OF THE TRANSFER SWITCH*
<https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html#&gid=1&pid=3
<
https://i.postimg.cc/DzTgYnrW/transfer20.jpg


*2Amp SlowBlow? BUSS SBS2 FUSES* (Mine are SBS4 and SBS5)
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ -/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg


*PLACARD ON SIDE SAYING 600 Volt 2Amp*
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~3kAAOSwAwxckUKF /$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/bJF18ht9/transfer22.jpg


*DOUBLE-FISTED SOLENOID CLOSEUP with manual lever*
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/h54AAOSwWnhckUKI /$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/WbZ0Rxb0/transfer23.jpg


*OWNERS MANUAL*
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/24wAAOSwsixckUJu /$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/N0dH7cpv/transfer24.jpg


Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:25:34 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Correction.

I just put some chalk on the raised letters of my mains circuit breaker
which showed the mains breaker to be 200 Amps (not 300 Amps).
<
https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg


There are three separate 100 Amp breakers, each going to a different panel.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg


So I think, at this point, that the reason for the TWO 100A Generac model
79848A transfer switches
<
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg

is simply that each one handles 100 amps nominally.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


Now I just need to figure out how to debug why this two-fisted solenoid
isn't switching on automatically - but it does switch on when I flip it
manually.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg


Re: How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:34:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks Clare. That makes sense then as to why the puny generator is only 67
Amps, but since the Mains is 200 Amps, it needs two transfer switches of
nominally 100 Amps each.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks for that analysis, which I can't argue with.  

Some of these voltages appear to be hard coded, based on this sticker
<
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I'll start looking up where to source spare parts, after calling Generac
tomorrow (1-800-GENERAC) to see if they still sell parts for this 79848A.

One problem I realized is that I lost 2 of the Buss fuses, which "may" be
why both transfer switches aren't turning on when the power goes out and
the generator turns on.

Funny thing is that advertisement for a similar transfer switch seems to
have the "green" Buss 600Volt fuses spec'd at 2 Amp based on this picture
of the Buss SBS-2 (green color code) for sale
<https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ -/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg>
<
https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg


Notice those are "SBS-2" green 600Volt fuses (not BBS!).

The sticker on the side panel of that transfer switch for sale, and on my
side panel both say the same thing, which "implies" 2 amp fuses at 600VAC.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg


My fuses appear to be red (not green), and they appear to be
o BBS-4 (not SBS)
o BBS-5 (not SBS)

So what's odd is that mine are higher amperage, but also a different three
letter code (mine are BBS while the one for sale is SBS).

I tried to get these fuses at Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace today, but none of
them stock these fuse sizes in the 600 VAC rating.
<
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg


I realized I'm _missing_ two fuses, where, I don't recall, but maybe I
removed them to test them and never put them back? It would have been a
long time ago (a year or two) so the _first_ thing I'm gonna do is source
those Buss fuses after figuring out why some are 4amp and some are 5amp.

I'm not sure _why_ some are the red 4 amp and some are 5 amp though (while
the originals seem to be green 2 amp).  

Googling, SBS does NOT stand for "slow blow" but for fast-acting!
<https://www.ferrazfuses.com/cms_admin/fckeditor/editor/filemanager/connectors/php/bin/Midget%20Gen%20Pur%20SBS.pdf

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