EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Ashton Crusher wrote in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more* fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

I have to agree with you.

Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm...

And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either.

Backwards.

Less fuel = hotter burn in the combustion chamber = higher NOx numbers It shows up as vehicles that get better EPA mileage numbers than the sticker says because they are burning less fuel.

To correct the issue they need to increase the fuel to the engine to cool the combustion temperatures.

The end result will be that the EPA MPG numbers will be closer to reality because the engine is now using the fuel to keep the NOx numbers down. The only "bad" side effect will be that the particulate trap and the NOx catalyst will need to burn more often to regenerate.

OR VW could come up with a DEF retrofit to drop the NOx numbers.

Remember we are talking DIESEL here. The more fuel, the hotter the burn. Same is true of Gasoline, but only to a point. The point doesn't come in to play with a compression ignition engine

Are their DEF vehicles included in the "scam" -(Tourag, T7 and Passat) TDI

"Bob F" wrote in mu202h$knp$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

It was ironic.

What I don't understand is that VW had to submit test results from a (supposedly) independent company in Europe to get certified in Europe for the 11 million cars that might be affected.

They apparently contracted that job out to Applus Idiada of Spain.

Has anyone any idea how Applus Idiada verified the wrong numbers?

mti9lu$jb$ snipped-for-privacy@news.mixmin.net

Was the software really all that "sophisticated"?

The NY Times said it was "sophisticated".

I think it was just brazen.

Wait, let's get this fukun straight. The EGR valve LOWERs N2O emissions by lowering peak combustion temperature.

It takes a high temperature to burn nitrogen and that is the deal, it combi nes with the O2 and becomes NO2. This does not happen as much at lower temp eratures.

The EGR system allows the intake system to brerathe really well, usually wi th VEs (volumetric efficiency) over 100 even in normally aspirated engines because of good camshaft design.

you can get all this, and use EGR to make regular gas burn like premium. Th at is one of the things it does. Lowering the peak combustion temperature, by the laws of physics, will slow down the combustion rate.

Ignition ping is caused by too fast combustion.

Modern cars have a knock sensor and continually advance the base ignition t iming incrementally until the knock sensor "reports". Then it backs off. Th is allows it to give you better performance with better gas. I know this is a diesel, but when it comes to EGR it still does the same thing.

Bottom line, they turned off the EGR until such time the car was under test , ;detected either by the connection of the tester, or the fact that the no n-drive wheels were not turning. That information is readily available from the ABS system, and traction control if so equipped.

I am surprised the admitted it. I would have said there is no explanation a nd we would just pay a fine, like $5 million or so to your favorite charity as well.

"Golf on Wednesday ?" "Definitely, we are going to kick your ass" "Really"

Apparently cheating is rather common.

Volkswagen Test Rigging Follows a Long Auto Industry Pattern By DANNY HAKIM and HIROKO TABUCHISEPT. 23, 2015

The VW cars in queston are DIESEL, not gas.

Jon

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

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I am glad you challenged me! I was thinking of the VW/Chrysler plant in PA. I was mistaken in ownership. Thank you.

Like AMC, Chrysler DID buy some engines from VW back around then - the Omni-Horizon originally used a VAG supplied engine (Audi fox?) a bit bigger than the rabbit engine at the time - and I believe AMC used basically the same engine in the early 4 cyl Spirit.

Have you actually seen any factual data that they were providing more fuel? From the little bit of decent info I've seen it looked more like they were trying to extend the life of some "filter" by turning the filter "off" and just letting the stuff fly out the tailpipe.

some info here..

I had a smog check this morning on a 2007 Camry. The shop had a new machine for newer vehicles. Since September 2013, 2000 and newer vehicles no longer get tested on the dynamometer and no longer get a probe shoved up their tailpipe. The whole test is done via the OBD-II port (as well as a visual inspection).

For diesel vehicles you can see the details here:

So clearly VW was not just looking at wheel rotation, they probably turned on the emission controls whenever they detected something reading the sensors. I wonder if an ELM327 transceiver or a Progressive "Snapshot" would have any effect.

Here's an interesting point. It seems CA has portable roadside emissions checkpoints that measure the emissions as you drive. I wonder why they haven't seen a major problem with VW vehicles as they pass these checkpoints?

Maybe it is a minimum difference between a properly working system and a VW in the fuel economy mode? Like someone else said - is the nominal emission near zero and 10 to 40 times worse is still an extremely small amount of NOx.

I saw a brief article in the newspaper and things suggested were: Barometric pressure Steering wheel position

among other things.

Possible, but I think the easiest way would be via the ABS. Rear wheels not turning. I could be wrong, I think German engineers get better drugs than most.

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 6:49:22 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrot e:

calls.

meet

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Owners will NOT have the option to opt out of the firmware being upgraded b ecause the cars are not EPA certifiable at this point. They need to be bro ught into compliance by U.S. law or be crushed if they cant. If the owner refuses to get an approved fix done, then many (if not most) will fail the car's emissions test and pull the reg (CT).

As far as suffering loss, that depends on the fix. If the firmware (and mo st likely hardware) changes do bring the cars into compliance, but causes a loss of performance and/or fuel mileage, then the owners have indeed suffe red a compensable loss. If it can be shown that the resale of the cars suf fered as a result of all of this, then that's also compensable. If the fix actually improves performance and efficiency (long shot but who knows?), th en it's a win for the customer as long as the fix doesn't shorten the life of the engine.

If the fix ends up being like so many other recalls, I'm sure VW will also include some VW swag for the customers to compensate for the trouble (VW ba ckpack, key rings, VW feminine hygiene products, etc.) and probably coupons for service and/or extending the warranty.

It will be interesting to see if VW had a fix ready in case the scam became known.

can you elaborate on this?