EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

The Justice Department reached an agreement with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two shoes.

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Over 100 people died. I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy are running the Justice Department.

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Reply to
Dean Hoffman
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I don't see the logic of this. The purpose of the code is to produce a specific level of emissions. As the EPA found, and I doubt it was hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling emissions? You can't, you can only tell if it "works" by measuring what comes out the tailpipe. Sure, a good code reader, if they had the time to look thru god knows how many lines of code, *might* spot a weird program execution loop but that it highly doubtful and certainly not a sure thing. And even if they did, it would not prove that the emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Oops! Right-o. What do you want to bet that the source code has this feature documented as a special low-torque mode to facititate getting out of snow banks?

Reply to
Jack Myers

It's true that the proof is in the pudding and actual emissions measurements tell the real story, but you cannot realistically measure emissions under every possible driving circumstance, so at some point the test will need to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole.

However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE might be a giveaway too...

--scott

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Reply to
Scott Dorsey

They test here in DE but plug into the computer to do it, not just sniff the tail pipe. Would guess our computer would be fooled too. Testing is also static without running load which I would assume EPA did.

Reply to
Frank

| The Justice Department reached an agreement | with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution | is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two | shoes.

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Over 100 | people died. | I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy | are running the Justice Department. |

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly surprising these things happen when the executives in charge have no liability. Even the companies often find the deals to be profitable. If a company cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined $20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be a good business plan.

Reply to
Mayayana

| Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If executives were held crimially liable for corporate law breaking then very little of it would happen. It's the difference between *maybe* risking their bonus and definitely risking years in jail. As long as the corporation is treated as an able, non-human party, and punished financially, that's an implicit statement that we as a society recognize no legal or ethical requirements for people doing business.

Reply to
Mayayana

I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance (i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings, VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house guest stole money out of your wallet.

Reply to
Winston_Smith

Murder is illegal but people still do it.

Reply to
Tom Miller

I once looked that up, and it's the truth is in the /taste/ of the pudding! :)

You'll notice they drove the three test cars from San Diego to Seattle. Do you know why they did that?

Because the trucking engine manufacturers were caught cheating years ago, where, after hundreds of miles of driving, the emissions would slowly creep up as the cheat codes slowly lowered the emissions constraints.

The only way to tell if the VW cheat code did the same thing as Caterpillar and Volvo did in the past, was to drive for a thousand miles or so. It turned out that the cheat code was not the same as the ones previously used by the trucking engine manufacturers, but, as you noted, the only way to tell was to drive very long distances.

This is true.

The problem here isn't that VW cheated; it's that we TRUSTED them not to cheat, and then they still cheated. It's like trusting a house guest not to steal from you. Or like trusting the pool boy not to steal chemicals from you. Or trusting the electrician not to steal wires from you. Or trusting the dentist not to steal gold fillings from you.

It's a trust issue (in addition to one big legal issue).

In the official documents, even VW called the cheat setting of the switch the dynamometer setting!

Reply to
Winston_Smith

Notice that they had from 5 to 45 times the LIMIT (which is a lot!).

The lower/higher numbers were due to city/highway mode, I think. (I assume the city numbers are the higher ones?)

The variation in the low and high figures themselves was due to the different vehicles tested.

I think, as someone mentioned, and as the news noted, the code is actually covered by the DCMA (it would be nice to find a cite).

It wasn't so much that VW /couldn't/ explain, but that they wouldn't explain it. They only admitted guilt when both CARB and EPA said they would not certify 2016 diesels because they couldn't be certain of the manufacturer's own certification process.

Only then, when VW knew their stock price would take the hit, did VW finally confess. And even then, they didn't confess to the fact that it's not half a million vehicles, but more than twenty times that number!

Reply to
Winston_Smith

I must agree, unfortunately.

At this point, we don't know WHO was involved.

Please post when anyone finds out WHO the guilty PEOPLE were.

Reply to
Winston_Smith

You have to keep in mind that there are DIFFERENT laws when safety is involved (NHTSA) versus the environment (EPA).

The NY Times, I think it was, discussed the difference, which essentially said that the EPA actually has more power to fine them than does the NHTSA.

We should look up the details, but, my point is that the laws and maximum penalties are totally DIFFERENT for safety violations versus emissions violations.

Inexplicably, the emissions violation laws appear (at first inspection) to be more stringent.

Go figure.

Reply to
Winston_Smith

Again, let's remember the laws and maximum fines are very DIFFERENT for emissions laws versus for safety laws.

Different laws. Different agencies. Different penalties.

You could be arguing that we should make the laws more consistent between SAFETY violations and EMISSIONS violations; but the fact is they are very different - so - you can't really compare them that way and be fair.

Reply to
Winston_Smith

My dad had a 1976 Chevy pickup. It was one of those with the gas tank outside of the rails. GM was supposed to allow an extra $1000 as trade in value as part of a settlement with the government. That deal smelled bad from the beginning.

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Reply to
Dean Hoffman

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women. Good.

Reply to
Vic Smith

GM's answer to any problem was always to buy a new one. I no longer drive GM cars and the associated problems.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet. Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$ as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well. VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

Yeah, those disgusting ads on TV should have been a clue that VW was an immoral company. A thorough investigation is necessary. When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next

10-12 years, they should take this up. They'll get to the bottom of it.
Reply to
Vic Smith

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is in the billions and for what?

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

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