EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

They didn't explicity mention that, but this article has a section named How did this alleged cheat work exactly?

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Reply to
Sam Wilhelm
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(4) What exactly did VW do?

Volkswagen has admitted that it equipped the control software for its

2.0-liter TDI diesel vehicles with a "defeat device" that detected when the car was undergoing emissions testing and significantly changed the operations of its powertrain to reduce emissions during the tests.

That detection was likely based on a combination of sensor data from the car, which might include steering angle (since cars on dynamometer tests don't make turns), front-wheel versus rear-wheel rotation speed, and a variety of other factors.

It appears that a combination of the factors above plus extremely gentle acceleration and braking might alert the car that it wasn't on the road but being tested in a lab.

Reply to
Jack Black

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Based on discussions with knowledgeable sources, we surmise that once an emissions test was detected, VW got the affected TDI engines to meet the Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limits by reducing the fuel flow rate.

This would reduce performance, but most likely not to the point where the car couldn't complete the emission cycles.

Lowering fuel flow would also reduce combustion temperatures and/or the duration of high-temperature operation enough to keep NOx emissions barely within EPA limits.

If the car detected that it was no longer in "testing mode" but had returned to "driving mode," it would restore fuel flow to the regular level--which would send NOx emissions soaring.

Reply to
Jack Black

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Reply to
Jack Black

VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module (ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is calling this the "switch".

The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure.

These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration".

Reply to
Jack Black

dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long."

Sorry. Seems like you are a good person and projecting, trying to think eve ryone else is good.

That ain't how it is. Companies have a roomful of lawyers and accountant wh o do nothing but figure out odds on how much they can break the law or enda nger people with a cheap design, versus how much it will cost them if they get caught, or have lawsuits. It is like playing poker. If you now ht you'r e doing, it is all a matter of real odds versus pot odds. that is how they think. That is how they stay on the board of directors, because they live t he company on the edge. And if they don't they are voted out.

Reply to
jurb6006

Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense.

Reply to
sms

I think a potato stuffed up the exhaust pipe would do just as much at half the cost.

Reply to
THE COLONEL, Ph.D

| > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? |

I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a discrepancy between testing and on-road results. But they've been haggling with VW all this time and somehow never thought to look at the software. Is the software accessible to EPA? Do they have developers who could understand it?

How the test is faked is just a technical issue. How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the important issue. They only found out because they threatened to hold up sales and at that point the VW execs admitted what they were doing. (Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they don't have to.)

... Then of course there's the question that begs to be asked: How could all of those executives, in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal environmentalists, have possibly decided it was a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal.

Reply to
Mayayana

Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other countries following our lead:

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  Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) 

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com 
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Reply to
Roger Blake

No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.

Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of interesting games would be found.

THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.

Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any means possible). But, it's necessary.

If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use arresting.

--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Reply to
Scott Dorsey

This article is not exactly accurate.

In the fifties, DDT was amazing, it worked great. We put it between our sheets. You could spray it in the air and see insects dropping out right and left.

But... by the seventies, mosquitoes (at least in Hawaii where I lived) had pretty much become immune to the stuff. Enormous, absolutely enormous amounts were necessary to kill insects. This is why there were environmental effects. My father had a gadget that would drop a mix of diesel and DDT into the muffler of the lawnmower and the smoke would kill mosquitoes, but by the seventies it wasn't killing them any more, even with a couple pounds of the stuff being burned.

Give it another forty years or so and we might be able to start using DDT in a small way again. But it was the massive overuse and abuse of DDT that got us to the point where it was banned, not some crazy left-wind conspiracy.

And yes, it WAS one of the big weapons in the fight against malaria, and it was a crime to lose that weapon. But it wasn't politicians that lost it.

--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Not just John Deere:

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John :-#(#

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(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) 
John's  Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) 
                      www.flippers.com 
        "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Reply to
John Robertson

The point is that government malfeasance, which can and does result in massive death, rarely if ever goes punished. I don't know how much additional pollution is being caused by VW diesels or if the effect is even measurable given their relatively low numbers. I do know that governments routinely lie, cheat, steal, and kill (sometimes en masse) all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of the State.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) 

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com 
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Reply to
Roger Blake

What a goof!

Reply to
.

Apparently 11 million cars are affected! Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed!

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"the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests."

Reply to
Winston_Smith

How Did the System Work?

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Reply to
Ablang

Boggles the mind. "Oh shit, we got caught"

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Not all dynos work that way. I would expect such a dyno to drive the stability/ABS systems crazy, possibly SLAMMING on the brakes or other actions. (Most cars today are FRONT wheel drive, so the case would be the front wheels turning and the back stationary. For rear wheel drive trucks, of course, it is the opposite case. on these, it would be VERY hard to keep the truck on the rear wheel only dyno. If it started to drift to either side, the steering wheel could not get the tires centered back on the treadmill.) On such vehicles, it might be necessary to shut down the stability/ABS systems to even do these tests, which would clue in any test detection software.

As for how the software could tell, this gives me an idea! The dynos have some considerable inertia, but it is likely much less that the inertia involved in accelerating the car to 60 MPH. So, the software might detect VERY easy acceleration to highway speed as a sign of a dyno test. This might also look like accelerating down a long hill, but if it goes on too long, it indicates minimal wind resistance. If you are cruising at 60 MPH with 4 HP effort, that would be a DEAD GIVEAWAY you are on a dyno! The emissions test dynos probably cannot absorb the output of a big car's engine to give it the normal highway load. That can be a LOT of power that you have to absorb for several minutes.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

WOW, that's QUITE a document!! Thanks for the link!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

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