Electrical repair report

snipped-for-privacy@att.net har bragt dette til os:

Probably it's better to say "All power outlets are not wired correctly".

It would probably be best to have a cheap tester to make sure e.g. the ground is really connected to ground and not just the chassis of the neigbour.

Leif

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Eller begge.

Maybe the high surge current when starting a good-sized motor. It's happened to me when using a "Saws All", a 14" chain saw, and an electric lawn mower. Breaking up the "neatly" coiled extension cord solved the (repeatable) problem. Don't believe I ever experienced it with anything else -- like a hand drill or battery charger.

And, maybe the GFCI was working at the far edge of specs. In any case, that house is no longer my home.

Jonesy

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You are forgiven. Yes. I was offended by your paragraph,

"Ummm... I seem to recall that your garage is crammed full of frozen fish in freezers. I also recall some photos of what I consider to be rather atrocious Romex wiring snaked around the outside of the house and garage. Now, you want to add a stove to the load? Have you actually measured the total current drain if you turn everything on at the same time? Have you at least tried to balance the load between the two phases entering the house? Have you considered replacing the Romex with something heavier, running conduit, and installing a real sub-panel with breakers?"

Because, nothing was true, except, I never measured to balance the load, I did put equal freezers on each circuit breaker though. I suppose at sometime I could have a freak coincidence and have 6 freezers running at the same time that are all on the same leg. Don't know what I could do about a freak happening like that.

Yes, I did it right. The garage is all original as built, for the sunroom, started all new, Installed new breaker, low gauge wire to power meter, into subpanel, breakout to 4 circuit breakers, 4 branches all in conduit.

It is nice to have your support. :-)

btw, most of my major back issues have. after 5 years seem to have resolved themselves. I noticed a change last November, enough so that I have started walking, I have logged over 40 miles a week for several weeks now. I feel like a new person, getting out of bed without pain, getting out of a chair. It is just plain wonderful! At times I get giddy over it. Now, if it can just continue. Mikek

I think it is so they can charge a high dollar for the book just to make money. There is also a book that is put out by them that not only has the code,but explinations and pix of how the wiring should be. For many this extra book is more useful than the actual code book. I am thinking the books come out updated every 3 years.

I believe not too many years ago the code book had to be bought and it was only after some legal issues that they had to make it available on line for free.

Of course. At $100 per book a difficult to use free copy is great advertising. I also get the mailings from NFPA and have difficulties resisting the temptation to buy the book. My current plan is to share the cost with several others locally.

Incidentally, in Sept 2013, the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz (county) added to my misery by adopting the International Building Code, which includes the beginnings of an electrical section: At this time, it mostly deals with fire safety. It's free (for now), somewhat printable, but not searchable or downloadable without a paid subscription: I don't really know much about it yet as I haven't run into anything specifically required by the IBC. However, I'm sure that the NFPA and IBC will diverge at some point, making a coin toss or beer a necessary tie breaker.

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My understanding is that some RCDs are for shock protection, like GFCIs, but with a trip current 30ma instead of 5mA in the US (30mA seems really high).

In the US, the current to trip a breaker on a high current ground-fault uses a N-G bond required at all services, with the fault current returning to the transformer on the service neutral. Some UK power schemes do not have the N-G bond, and the return path is through the earth, which does not provide a low resistance path. I think the RCDs for a service, or where everything has a RCD, are to provide a trip on the limited-current fault to ground-earth.

Most of a kitchen, all garage, within 6 ft of sinks, laundry, unfinished basement, outside, ...

If the #12 wires are "somewhat" shorted you can also get a fire-causing arc.

AFCIs also trip on a loose connection ("series" arc). And they include ground-fault protection, typically at a 30mA level, that catches some arc-faults (and is the reason the circuit neutral has to wire-through the arc-fault device).

There are some questions whether AFCIs protect as well as claimed. And a major reason code change proposals are rejected is that no "substantiation" is provided that the change is an improvement. I have not seen any substantiation of the improved safety provided by the original AFCIs in bedrooms years ago.

AFCI receptacles are now available. For new wiring AFCI protection is for both the building wiring and the plug-in loads, so receptacle-AFCIs generally can't be used. There are places where they can be used, and they can protect downstream wiring (as is done with GFCI receptacles).

It has been expanded. In the 2011 NEC essentially everything that did not require GFCI protection requires AFCI protection. In the 2014 NEC some locations require both AFCI and GFCI protection.

Also new in the 2011 NEC:

- replacement receptacles in areas where AFCI protection is now required have to be AFCI protected (several methods)

- replacement receptacles where GFCI protection is now required must be GFCI protected (I'm sure mikek protected his outside receptacle)

- replacement receptacles in areas that now require tamper-resistant receptacles must be tamper-resistant (that is most of the general purpose receptacles in a dwelling)(keeps kids from putting paper-clips in the receptacle)

- replacement receptacles in areas that now require weather-resistant receptacles must be weather-resistant (damp locations, like outdoors)

AFCI or GFCI receptacles may have to be tamper-resistant or weather-resistant.

In the UK there are many "ring" circuits protected at about 30A. That makes the fuse protection at the plug even more important.

The fuses don't necessarily protect you from arcing however. In particular if it is a loose connection ("series" arc) the current will be limited by the load. The AFCIs used now (but not the original ones) can trip on an arc current of about 5A.

If a 3-light tester says a circuit is OK it probably is. But it will not catch a high resistance ground path. 100 ohms is a really bad ground but will test OK. If I really want to test a ground I use something like a

100W light bulb from H to G.

Also applies to meters.

Also doesn't test for G connected to N at the receptacle (if there is no supply ground). Your expensive tester should. Some of them put a pulse H-G and look for N-G voltage, which also actually tests the ground.

And if G is connected to N, and H-N are reversed (G is now hot) an expensive tester may not find it. It is easily found with a "non-contact" voltage tester. Or I carry a neon test light and plug in one lead and hold the other - capacitive current to ground will dimly light the lamp.

GFCIs, incidentally, will trip if there is a short between N and G wires downstream. (Doesn't require a load.)

These

Ideal Sure Test meters are really nice especially when you manage to get them real cheap.

There is a conflict there. For some time now it has been against code for t he "debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usually two sets of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you can't use them in the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the box, presumably so that you do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

There is some sense to this because of shared neutrals. Electricians have b eeen killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you personall y wired the place, you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a sha red neutral and if you can actually disconnect it safely.

This flies right in the face of those outputs on most GFCI outlets. Apparen tly now, code here is to buy another GFCI outlet for each location. What is screwed up is that I used to generally use the GFCI output to power over t he sink lights. Now I suppose I have to use the breaker. At least when you use the breaker There are no shared neutral problems. Can't be, it would tr ip immediately.

Had a really strange one recently. Two lights, one in the bedroom and one i n the hallway. Turn one on and it is fine. Turn the other one on and it is fine. Turn both on at the same time and the GFCI breaker trips. It had to h ave something to do with a shared neutral. There was no short. I reverted i t back to a regular breaker, screw it, these idiots had all the walls in an d painted.

In fact I don't really see a reason for a GFCI in a bedroom and a hallway, except for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, bas ement ? What is basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on an al uminum ladder changing a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

I have not found that to be true of the GFCIs around here.

Makes the dangers of shared neutrals sorta pale eh ? Electrocution is not just for electricians then.

We had hot and ground reversed on an outlet at work.

The PC plugged into it had a hot chassis.

We didn't notice until we added it to the network with shielded biax and a barrel connector. I had one hand on the upstream biax where shield was hot, and the other hand on the downstream biax where shield was ground, and got that familiar tingle.

But everything ran fine up to that point. Uh, I might have said a naughty word when it happened.

** But you are rabid, self confessed, drug f***ed, tenth-wit with no idea if his huge ass was on fire.

And I am being kind to you.

... Phil

...

One hand on ladder, the other grabbing the light bulb will make a conduction path...

John :-#(#

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Actually I have an electricians tool that tests if E and N are reversed. The ECOS Accu-Test II Model 7106 from 1986 did that test (#4 of the test procedures - Neutral and Ground Wire Reversal Test Procedure).

A picture and some info here:

I have one of these and the owners manual, and will scan the manual shortly if anyone needs a copy.

As for a good background story of GFCIs:

John :-#)#

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ds

or the "debvice to be the splice". Looing at regular outlets there are usua lly two sets of screws or whatever connectors. At tleast in this area you c an't use them in the way you migth thoink, which is one set in, and one set out to other outlets or whatever. You have to "pigtail" the wires in the b ox, presumably so that you do not have to break into the circuit to change the device.

ve beeen killed due to shared neutrals. It is simply not practical to shut down the whole building to change a couple of outlets. and unless you perso nally wired the place, you have no way of knowing if you are dealing with a shared neutral and if you can actually disconnect it safely.

ay, except for one thing - the house it built on a slab. Shades of Florida, basement ? What is basement ? I suppose if you were in your bare feet on a n aluminum ladder changing a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixt ure while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a sh ock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

Really? Even with wooden or fiberglass ladders?

In this particular area there alot of old houses that hav knob and tube wir ing. I swear these guys ran one neutral for the whole house and that was it . Of course back then people had lightbulbs and a fridge and just about not hing else. Perhaps a table radio which of course had a hot chassis.

I am surprised there weren't more electrocutions. Even then.

Now one of the biggest probles is when you go to rewire old houses. I'll te ll you this, most local 38 electricians will not touch residential, except for friends and family. They can go wire a nuclear power plant (my cousin d id) but you call them with a problem in yyour house wiring you are on your own.

I have done a bunch of it. changed out panels, in a couple of cases almost completely rewired the place, and there is one thing about this./ There are some things you simply cannot get to without gutting the place. In these c ases it is very important to ID the neutral and peoplee DO screw this up.

It is against code to add anything to existing knob and tube, but you are a llowed ro connect the knob and tube to a new source. That porch light that would require heavy construction to redo, the garage in some cases where yo u would have to tear all kinds of shit out to get to, a few other things.

Those little meters and doodads with the lights will not help much there. N eed a Wiggie.

I have actually temporarily installed an outlet, properly ground, just hang ing off the main panel for this purpose. Then I use a LONG extension cord. In fact I found out the hot and neutral had been reversed in my Mother's ga rage for years. I run EMT in grages and reversing the polarity is not an op tion, guaranteed. It is bad enough with Romaex n shit, but now you got hot pipes, and not caused by soem good Texas style chili.

Lived in an apartment a long time ago. Felt something funny when touching t he fridge one day. Found a test light, by that I mean a lamp with a 100 wat t bulb in it, and between the fridge body and the cold water pipe I got a f ull 120 volts AC. I thought a commercial building like that would have been professionally wired.

But then I remember the true definition of professional. All it means is th at you get paid, there is no innate implication of competence. Same way wit h the word honor, what it really means is to pay. Same way with the word no ble, it really doesn't, or wasn't intended to mean what alot of people thin k it means.

In the plant where I worked they would not allow any ladder that could conduct electricity. When I bought one for the house it was light aluminum. I got tird of dragging the heavy fiberglass stuff around. I did work as an electrician in the plant. With all the metal pipes around, I thought that the nonconducting ladders were a waste anyway for the most part. There are all kinds of safety rules that have to be made by people that do not have anything to do but sit behind a desk and try to justify their jobs.

For ordinary circuits, the circuit can wire-through a receptacle.

If it is a "multiwire branch circuit", with a common neutral, the neutral can't be wired-through.

For a few code cycles, multiwire branch circuits have to have a "common disconnect" so when one circuit of a multiwire branch circuit is turned off all the circuits are turned off. This can be done with a listed handle tie. (If one circuit trips they don't all have to trip.) That makes multiwires fairly impractical. And you can't use a multiwire on an AFCI or GFCI breaker (unless you get a 120/240V breaker, which is expensive).

There is no NEC problem wiring other loads downstream from a GFCI receptacle and protecting them. The GFCI receptacle now has to be more accessible than in the past.

I don't know if there are provisions enforced where you are that are stricter than the NEC, but I suspect these requirements follow the NEC.

(Electricians are not likely to use a metal ladder.)

a broken (somehow) lightbulb in the cieling fixture while it is turned on (hey, they'll do that I gues) there could be a shock hazard. Usually when I climb a ladder I put my shoes on.

The last sentence of previous poster was saying that he wore shoes when he climbed ladders and figured no risk of shock as a result. As he had previously suggested this was an aluminum ladder so I figured he may have overlooked that path...

As for wooden or fiberglass, if the wood is wet or either ladder is wet along with conductive material (metal shavings, metal dust, etc.) they can conduct some electricity. Probably not enough to be a problem, but one can't assume you are completely safe even on a fiberglass ladder.

One has to think about conduction paths...unless you like falling from heights.

John :-#)#

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